F15c is not the TANK

[combatace]

Heres what I infer from my knowlege of SARH and ARH missiles R-27ER runs on the RADAR waves running reflected from the target A/C which are actually emitted by the launch A/C, as the radar waves has to travel the distance from Launch A/C to target A/C and this can cause some delay(may be miliseconds) but that should be enough at the speed of A/C and I have usually I have seen that ER lauched at distance hits the tail/engine section but misses fusalage, ER is heavy and may its inertia too add up in it hitting the tail section. But at close range this is does not affect and it usually results in total damage of target A/C. For,ARH missiles(120 and 77), they have their own wave emitters turned on in the terminal part of flight and hence has less delay and summing up to the accuracy the delay contantly reduces as missiles approaches the target A/C and result in to damage of front sections on A/C. Now, one can easily fire with engines dead and an F-15C carrying Aim-120 can fire at the approaching opponent unaware of total situation and after a few seconds dose not to track it and in FC2 engines on fire means unit is declared dead. I fly Su-27 99% of the total time I spend with FC2 and I always try to fire R-27ET if my engines are dead. Once I made 3 kills whiles decending from some 5km and decelerating from some 1500kmph and remember I was declared dead by the 104th server.

[Grimes]

Triggered "Dead is Dead" works and is quite simple. I need to do more tests to see exactly what happens and when. But generally aircraft gets hit, is rules as a kill, and is mostly on fire, trigger executes, and it blows up in the air.

 

All it needs is 1 trigger per airframe you are worried about.

 

Whether or not it should be implemented is questionable. It seems that "Scored Dead" means the aircraft is useless, however the pilot might still be alive and/or capable of crash landing on a road or runway. The thing to keep in mind is that aircraft, even the SFM aircraft, don't have health bars. Instead they have systems, all of which are capable of failing under different circumstances. A kill doesn't necessarily equate to 100% aircraft damage, if anything a kill ranges from 15% damage on up... depends on what systems were taken out or the control surfaces lost.

 

Yeah, it is BS when someone fires off a missile when they are basically dead and get a kill out of it. I always sighed whenever I watch my missile close in only to see the other guy pumping out flares, chaff, and every weapon he has left as a last ditch effort.

 

I suppose with stats you can heavily penalize such actions.

[Exorcet]

ED please!

 

Part of LOFC is very frustrating.

 

F15 decomposed or dead (on chat) can fire, keep lock, make hard maneuvar, back in the fight... kill me or someone and after ALL CIRCUS with FULL POWER rtb. :doh:

 

This is frustrating for us and shame for ED because all programers and testers know all about this and you guys dont wanna change anything. Why???

 

We are talk about this milion times and nothing happens. When some proximity hit only touch my SU27 in my mind is only ESCAPE and RTB because in 99% cases i dont have main instruments for back in fight. F15C can do all.

 

Please dont tell me about likely (pilot is live, main instruments working...etc) because you speculated upon. Every pilot in reality after contact with the missile in own mind only have words "Thanx God because im live" then go RTB with the prays. LOCKON PILOT (F15c pilot) after contact with the 3 - 5 missiles in own mind only have words "Thanx ED for this great TANK" then go make maybe one more kill with the smiles on the chat.

 

We NEED Yoda`s "Death is death". :helpsmilie:

 

The Su-27 is every bit as much a tank as the F-15. I found one sitting alone in the middle of no where, engaged BVR, he turned and ran, so I chased. I was going faster in the beginning, so I caught up. Fired second AMRAAM. Looked like a hit, though I'm not completely certain. Fired third AMRAAM. Direct hit, the plane is still flying, with both engines might I add. At this point, I'm close enough for a Sidewinder. Another hit, the plane might have lost an engine as it started to slow, but he was still flying. I had to use multiple 20 mm bursts to take him down.

 

So that's 4 missiles + cannon needed to shoot down the Flanker. 2 missiles hit, 1 missle may have hit, 1 missile missed, and he still needed a few dozen explosive shells in his fuselage.

 

Meanwhile, I'm every familiar with flying along thinking no one is watching only to suddenly have your cockpit disappear and get the message "XXX killed you with R-27ET".

 

The problem you're describing happens to all planes. And yes, I fly more than the Eagle.

 

 

 

 

 

As for dead is dead. It's OK, but I would not like to prevent damage aircraft from limping back to base. I'd rather just have the kill messages go away.

[SEFalcon]

@ Case

 

Thank you for log but this is only one situation, prety smilar.

 

@ GG Tharos

 

"The question is how often does it happen, and with which planes?"

 

Almost every other battle vs F15 and EVERY time is F15C for me. Before few monts on the 3sqn server i shot on target with 4 EM`s and i see 4 hits (dead on chat), target falling and i go back but my wingman warning me... "missile at your six!!!". Same target still firing on me, im escape and my wingman is finaly destroy that target with 2 ET`s and count kill to.

 

So 4x EM + 2x ET = 6 hits for destroy F15C??? This is not tank, this is MONSTER PLANE.

 

I hope so im not alone with this and finaly we will fix this soon.

[GGTharos]

It has nothing to do with the plane in that case. Both what you and Exorcet are describing is a (maybe not well known, but definitely known) network issue :(

 

Due to latency the missiles may explode at a distance where they only do very minimum damage. In the other direction, he may be getting very good position reports on you, and his missiles appear to hit 'harder'.

 

I have a fairly good network connection so pretty much any time a missile hits me I have either no engines or no wings, at minimum. I can still 'fight' without engines, ie. shoot missiles, but not for very long. Without wings, well ... even without one wing, I will not be chasing anyone. Just stay away from a bandit you shoot down, or if you are close to him, double-tap.

[MoGas]

@ Case

 

Thank you for log but this is only one situation, prety smilar.

 

@ GG Tharos

 

"The question is how often does it happen, and with which planes?"

 

Almost every other battle vs F15 and EVERY time is F15C for me. Before few monts on the 3sqn server i shot on target with 4 EM`s and i see 4 hits (dead on chat), target falling and i go back but my wingman warning me... "missile at your six!!!". Same target still firing on me, im escape and my wingman is finaly destroy that target with 2 ET`s and count kill to.

 

So 4x EM + 2x ET = 6 hits for destroy F15C??? This is not tank, this is MONSTER PLANE.

 

I hope so im not alone with this and finaly we will fix this soon.

 

You have a track from this MONSTER? I guess it was more a last unloading from his rails, before hitting the ground, and you guys just wasted 4 missiles for it.

 

If I shoot a F-15, SU-27 or MiG, and he is burning, I still turn away, because everyone knows, a angry guy is maybe cleaning his rails, and I don't shoot further 5 AIM-120 on him. What happens if he explodes right after, then you will set ARH or IR missile maybe infront of youre own flyt, and a nice TK happens.

Edited September 3, 2010 by MoGas

[VTJS17_Fire]

I think there would be a problem with triggers like "unit hit -> unit explode". You're not always dead or explode, when you were hit! IRL, some F-15 landed with one wing after mid-air. So, explode by hit is not real, too.

 

I think on A-10 missions. The A-10 is a tank! But by a simple AAA hit, I would explode? Bad solution, imo.

 

 

Why don't you de-activate the events-chat?

So nobody can read, when a bandit/ enemy/ friend is dead ... like in real life. There the pilots don't have a chat, that they say "hey, your target is dead!". IRL, you must observe and confirm the splash. Otherwise, you launch another missile for the kill.

 

 

kind regards,

fire

[Case]

Why don't you de-activate the events-chat?

So nobody can read, when a bandit/ enemy/ friend is dead ... like in real life. There the pilots don't have a chat, that they say "hey, your target is dead!". IRL, you must observe and confirm the splash. Otherwise, you launch another missile for the kill.

My point exactly!

[Case]

The question is how often does it happen, and with which planes?

I went through the 626 air-to-air kills that we have recorded on the 51st server since August, and I only find a single instance where a pilot was declared dead in the debrief.log, but was able to fire a missile after this.

 

Now I must note that being declared dead in the debrief.log is not necessarily the same as the on_kill() hook in the events.lua file. I think it is likely that a kill message may often appear when the pilot is not really dead. So essentially, you should never trust kill messages, and it would be better to have them turned off.

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

Agreed with all that.

[combatace]

I agree with last post of GG.And yes messages can be taken out but chat I don't think so, you said pilots talk then let them talk because not everyone uses teamspeak.

[GGTharos]

It is the modeled limitation of HPRF - it does not pick up rear-aspect targets very well.

And at 40km, you're probably outside of maximum MPRF capability as well.

 

I guess he might be talking about Su-27 radar loosing lock when a bandit turns 180 under 40km which inhibit further guidance to R-27ER which make it very less effective. Ofcourse we all know thats a bug

[GGTharos]

They're just talking about disabling kill messages, not all of chat :)

 

I agree with last post of GG.And yes messages can be taken out but chat I don't think so, you said pilots talk then let them talk because not everyone uses teamspeak.

[VTJS17_Fire]

The other pro of disabling events-chat is, that nobody can read, who takes off or/ and landed.

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

[RIPTIDE]

I think there would be a problem with triggers like "unit hit -> unit explode". You're not always dead or explode, when you were hit! IRL, some F-15 landed with one wing after mid-air. So, explode by hit is not real, too.

 

I think on A-10 missions. The A-10 is a tank! But by a simple AAA hit, I would explode? Bad solution, imo.

 

 

Why don't you de-activate the events-chat?

So nobody can read, when a bandit/ enemy/ friend is dead ... like in real life. There the pilots don't have a chat, that they say "hey, your target is dead!". IRL, you must observe and confirm the splash. Otherwise, you launch another missile for the kill. The messages aren't the issue.... IRL when you get the hit and your flaming, the 1st thing you think about is eject. Not try to turn around and have another go. lol

 

 

kind regards,

fire

The messages aren't the issue. What is the issue is your bandit is on fire. His skin is falling off him with burning jet fuel from your 1st hit. Whats the 1st thing he thinks about? Eject?? Nah.. that would be too realistic and only for pussies... he directs his faltering jet around and manages to longitudinal off a couple of ET's or maddogg a few 120's even though IRL his skeleton has been carbonised. :doh:

[RIPTIDE]

Only one thing should happens. You must see how many missiles you need to kill one F15c. And after how many missiles (hits) your f15c pilot and electronics stop "working".

 

I know for SU27. Only small touch (hit) and i dont have possibility to continue battle. And that is ok for me. But in every flaming parts on the sky situation, that flaming parts wich continue killing is F15c. EVERY TIME. Common guys!

 

And thanx God we have Grimes in the comunity. Im sure you will make trigger for that :)

Well that's easy... teh F-15C amazing build quality and nearly indestructible super structure is well modelled in FC2.0. Dayum... i reckon IRL a '77 would hardly smudge up the landing lights... never mind scratch the paint of a F-15C.

 

[VTJS17_Fire]

If you see he's burning and falling off, you should experienced enough, to turn away and not fly and check it from 100 meters by passing him. :music_whistling:

 

Be patience! If he's burning and descending, sooner or later he crashes or return to base - if possible. Or you risk your life and kill him with heaters or gun - or waste another BVR missile. But that's your problem. :smilewink:

 

 

kind regards,

fire

[MoGas]

If you see he's burning and falling off, you should experienced enough, to turn away and not fly and check it from 100 meters by passing him. :music_whistling:

 

Be patience! If he's burning and descending, sooner or later he crashes or return to base - if possible. Or you risk your life and kill him with heaters or gun - or waste another BVR missile. But that's your problem. :smilewink:

 

 

kind regards,

fire

 

Exactly...

[Pilotasso]

ED please!

 

Part of LOFC is very frustrating.

 

F15 decomposed or dead (on chat) can fire, keep lock, make hard maneuvar, back in the fight... kill me or someone and after ALL CIRCUS with FULL POWER rtb. :doh:

 

This is frustrating for us and shame for ED because all programers and testers know all about this and you guys dont wanna change anything. Why???

 

We are talk about this milion times and nothing happens. When some proximity hit only touch my SU27 in my mind is only ESCAPE and RTB because in 99% cases i dont have main instruments for back in fight. F15C can do all.

 

Please dont tell me about likely (pilot is live, main instruments working...etc) because you speculated upon. Every pilot in reality after contact with the missile in own mind only have words "Thanx God because im live" then go RTB with the prays. LOCKON PILOT (F15c pilot) after contact with the 3 - 5 missiles in own mind only have words "Thanx ED for this great TANK" then go make maybe one more kill with the smiles on the chat.

 

We NEED Yoda`s "Death is death". :helpsmilie:

 

 

Oh for god sakes...since when this bug is F-15 specific problem? Its the same for all aircraft.

 

But yes make the fixes. A combat wounded bird should not be firing missiles with no power.

[104th_Crunch]

The other pro of disabling events-chat is, that nobody can read, who takes off or/ and landed.

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

 

You only see these for friendlies. In real life would you also not get confirmations of kills from other sources besides your own eyes?

 

Falcon,

You have a point about damage from missiles. It is different from FC1 for sure. I agree "dead is dead" is a good option as like you say, if a missile hits you, the last thing you are going to be doing is spamming your missiles trying to kill the bandit, if you systems allowed it.

 

Your F-15 tank statement really shows you have a discrimination for anything but your favorite aircraft. I am really sick of this fanboy stuff. You can't by casual observation say the F-15 can take more damage. You need data. Then, to post how ED and the testers (that work for free) are ridiculous is just not right. Please try and be helpful before ripping into people for the work they do. ED are trying the best with what they have.

 

Either way, we all know ED are busy with DCS, so we must live with what we have. A LRM like dead is dead mod would be great, but don't forget it may cause issues with file checking.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Crunch

[Pilotasso]

Hmm I don't get it. I've been hit many times by ER and died in one time.

 

Dito..this is exaggerated to say F-15 is armored... Been hit and vaporized lots of times. Others limped back to base, others had to eject for lack of gliding distance. Donne the Same in Su-27 recently.

 

Sounds pretty normal.

[Sov13t]

I guess technically we could have Dead is Dead back by amping up the missile table, but then again non-stock configuration files = PITA. :(

 

Oh I know... let's wait for 2-3 years until DCS Fighter is out. :thumbup: *sigh*

[GGTharos]

No, he doesn't. The problem is with the way damage to the WCS is handled, not the damage received from missiles. These are two separate problems ... as is the problem with missiles not doing -enough- damage due to network position reporting/latency against certain persons at certain times.

 

Falcon,

You have a point about damage from missiles. It is different from FC1 for sure. I agree "dead is dead" is a good option as like you say, if a missile hits you, the last thing you are going to be doing is spamming your missiles trying http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=57454

[Krippz]

You only see these for friendlies.

 

Negative Crunch you get a notification when enemies take-off and land as well.

[MoGas]

Negative Crunch you get a notification when enemies take-off and land as well.

 

Not on the 104th ;)