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F15c is not the TANK


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F15c is not the TANK  

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  1. 1. F15c is not the TANK



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You only see these for friendlies. In real life would you also not get confirmations of kills from other sources besides your own eyes?

 

Falcon,

You have a point about damage from missiles. It is different from FC1 for sure. I agree "dead is dead" is a good option as like you say, if a missile hits you, the last thing you are going to be doing is spamming your missiles trying to kill the bandit, if you systems allowed it.

 

Your F-15 tank statement really shows you have a discrimination for anything but your favorite aircraft. I am really sick of this fanboy stuff. You can't by casual observation say the F-15 can take more damage. You need data. Then, to post how ED and the testers (that work for free) are ridiculous is just not right. Please try and be helpful before ripping into people for the work they do. ED are trying the best with what they have.

 

Either way, we all know ED are busy with DCS, so we must live with what we have. A LRM like dead is dead mod would be great, but don't forget it may cause issues with file checking.

 

 

Quoting to repost as my first post was screwed up. Cell phone screen is small :)

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You only see these for friendlies. In real life would you also not get confirmations of kills from other sources besides your own eyes?

 

IRL, your wingman (or another pilot in the area) could monitor and observe the splash, but in that situation also: One of you have to monitor or observe it!

There is no god voice, that tells you the splash.

 

Maybe some systems, like AWACS can do, I don't know. But not always. If the FC 2.0 AWACS couldn't see bandits in the mountains, so it shouldn't see or monitor a splash with his avionics in that terrain. :smartass:

And if other sources could confirm kills, like the U-2 in a BDA, you don't have this confirmation at the same time, your bandit splashed. Maybe 2 or 5 ours later.

 

 

Another thing is, that you can read, who kills the enemy. IRL, if you have two pilots, such as, shot at the same target. I think you don't know, how makes the kill.

 

 

kind regards,

Fire


Edited by VTJG17_Fire

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Incidentally, dead is dead might in theory be implementable either as trigger (as Grimes said), or perhaps in a different manner by servman, though I'm a bit dubious of the latter.

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You can usually tell that an aircraft has been destroyed on radar a lot of times, IIRC - you'll see multiple radar returns that do not behave quite like chaff, speed and altitude will start to decrease, etc.

 

Maybe some systems, like AWACS can do, I don't know. But not always. If the FC 2.0 AWACS couldn't see bandits in the mountains, so it shouldn't see or monitor a splash with his avionics. :smartass:

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

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You can usually tell that an aircraft has been destroyed on radar a lot of times, IIRC - you'll see multiple radar returns that do not behave quite like chaff, speed and altitude will start to decrease, etc.

 

espacially, when he spins down do the earth...

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But in that situation, you have to monitor the target with your radar. :)

 

 

kind regards,

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Yes you're right - n/a FC, obviously :)

 

But in that situation, you have to monitor the target with your radar. :)

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

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Well, a real plane behaves a certain way on radar, with more tell-tale signs than what you get in FC1/2. In FC2, you could actually kill the pilot but the aircraft, with its engines and all will remain operational and as long as he does not exit, it will continue flying like that ;)

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Guys guys, all of you are missing the point entirely!

 

The problem isnt in the F15 itself, or any other plane for that matter, its a problem with Aim 120... It has 2-3x times more explosive power than ER (even though ER technically packs a hell of alot more TNT, in RL), Just go check the missile files and you will see... numbers dont lie!

 

So, this is obviosly completely incorrect, if we judge by RL numbers... but ED did it to make 120 more deadly against any barrel-rolls, etc... IMO they overdid it big time, the fuze range is already enough if u ask me...

 

So the reason you "see" F15 being so good, because he can usually take you down with 1 hit, while you, in a Su27, flying with firecracker piss poor ERs might need your whole payload after first hit due to much lower "stopping power". Its really that simple! And those who dont fly Su-27s enough just dont know this...

 

Of course the fact that ED messed up the damages modeling doesnt help as any terminal hit will still leave you with fully functional weapons, HUD and avionic systems, not to mention how your missiles stay completely intact and ready to fire after a direct hit... hehe... But guess what! Your odds of sustaining such a 'survivable' hit are significantly higher if you fly the F15 against a Russian bird... why? well as stated above, numbers of missile files dont lie!

 

Anyway this has been said to ED many times already on RU forums... to no avail... nothing much we can do...

 

just my two cents on the issue...


Edited by Breakshot

 

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Can't you just increase those numbers? If it is really widely needed and obviously "mistake" compared to real ER, community should accept it without problem at all.

 

I remember YoYo's (ED programmer) words that we don't know exactly how numbers are calculated at all.


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^^ Falcon i think you didnt understand my post fully... Of course you can get killed instantly with all missiles... even with P60... BUT, we are talking percentages here, and maneuvering targets in a combat environment... thats when the numbers will show up overtime... and thats why F15s are harder to kill over a number of engagements... etc

 

And as i stated already, there is the wrong damage model for all planes... or in other words, the dead drones firing missiles...

 

Oh and 120 is MORE powerful than ER in FC2, not the other way around (as it should be) ;) Thats essentially part of the problem... and I think you misunderstood what i said in this respect..


Edited by Breakshot

 

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Guys guys, all of you are missing the point entirely!

 

The problem isnt in the F15 itself, or any other plane for that matter, its a problem with Aim 120... It has 2-3x times more explosive power than ER (even though ER technically packs a hell of alot more TNT, in RL), Just go check the missile files and you will see... numbers dont lie!

 

So, this is obviosly completely incorrect, if we judge by RL numbers... but ED did it to make 120 more deadly against any barrel-rolls, etc... IMO they overdid it big time, the fuze range is already enough if u ask me...

 

OK, so there was a way of changing values in order to customize bomb footprints so I wonder if same can be done with AIM-120 to bring it down to more realistic values?

 

I know that F-15C fanboy's cries prevailed with ED and it can be clearly seen in FC2.0, however there's this thing that's been hanging on the tip of everybody's tongue and we had numerous discussions on that subject - balance vs realism - but in fact ballance is realism at least in Cold War era.

 

We must focus on where we are today and where we want our FC2.0 timeframe to be placed, is it '80s, early or late '90, or we're in 21st century?

 

For instance, F-15C received a lot of "upgrades" in FC2.0 some say it's still a basic Charlie Eagle but hey, looking at payloads it's a 21st century Eagle people fly in MP. I only see A and C AMRAAMs hanging, no Sparrows anymore. In addition to that ED pimped up those AMRAAMs to make it even more supreme and player friendly...

 

:doh:

 

The main reason that dragged me into buying ED/SSL Flanker 15 years ago was the chance to fly notorious Soviet superiority fighter, it was quite unaccesible during my childhood, you could only hear about it but contacts with it were very rare although it was mass produced and there was a paranoid word that there's hundreds maybe thousands of them built and ready to sweep entire western Europe and advance over Atlantic...

 

On the other hand good planes like F-14, F-15 and F-16 were all over the place...in movies (Top Gun, Iron Eagle etc.), in TV commercials, music...it really made me sick back then...

 

...and now you're pimping it up beyond imagination?!! ED should rather focus on creating a F-22 Raptor and placing it in game somewere in the future, it's another notch on realism scale but hell of a lot more solid than unrealistic Eagles...

 

Just my 2 cents here, but you've gotta understand my point...

 

I'll see what can be done with decreasing AIM-120 explosives and burst range at least making it equal to Alamo A or C. I know I won't pass many integrity checks with that edit but what the hell, many servers should make similar adjustments in order to remain interesting.

 

Cheers!

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Breakshot, if you want to talk "percentages", please supply statistics that have been developed with adequate controls. If you don't have that available, please google "confirmation bias".

 

My personal experience is that a hit by an ER kills me outright about as often as a hit by an AIM-120C does, and in both cases it is a relatively common (but still minority) occurance that I get to at least try an emergency landing.

 

Also:

any terminal hit will still leave you with fully functional weapons, HUD and avionic systems

 

Is just plain wrong. I've been forced to try doing self-defense in BFM with pure dead-reckoning gunfire several times, as well as trying to make an educated guess on when my AIM-9 is in launch paramenters since the hit I took in the preceding 30 seconds left my HUD and targeting systems completely dead.

 

That's the F-15 though. I haven't checked if your statement is true for the russian planes... :P


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Case is working on statistics and could make a valuable input here.

 

My opinion is that all this alarmism is not fundamented.

 

It has not sinked in the minds yet; the fact firing first while not getting himself shot at should be the first priority to do notching and the other tricks. people do notch and do the other tricks to get closer to their prey despite knowing they will be fired upon eventually even before themselves have an opportunity, holding untill it comes. :). And then are picky about the reasons why their getting hit. People need to adjust to Fc2. Thats all theres to it.


Edited by Pilotasso

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The problem is that this statement is, in fact, not correct.

 

Firstly, FC does not model frag effects - unfortunate, but such is life.

In order to compensate, we must increase the blast effect - unfortunate, but it works out.

The AIM-120 uses a directed warhead, which IS more powerful than a warhead of the same weight (or even a warhead of twice the weight) in the given direction. This is what the 'advanced_warhead' or whatever it is called in the weapon files attempts to simulate. It is also not possible to simulate the proper fuze range without this increase in explosive power.

 

In case you are curious, the blast is shaped by timing the explosion of various parts of the warhead - think of an HE round, same principle, except you're shaping an explosion instead of a piece of gold/copper/yourfavoritemetal.

 

You are essentially diverting attention away from what is the real problem, which is in fact the network code.

 

 

Oh and 120 is MORE powerful than ER in FC2, not the other way around (as it should be) ;) Thats essentially part of the problem... and I think you misunderstood what i said in this respect..

Edited by GGTharos

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I know that F-15C fanboy's cries prevailed with ED and it can be clearly seen in FC2.0, however there's this thing that's been hanging on the tip of everybody's tongue and we had numerous discussions on that subject - balance vs realism - but in fact ballance is realism at least in Cold War era.

 

Incorrect; you in fact know nothing, but we'll address that a little later.

 

 

For instance, F-15C received a lot of "upgrades" in FC2.0 some say it's still a basic Charlie Eagle but hey, looking at payloads it's a 21st century Eagle people fly in MP. I only see A and C AMRAAMs hanging, no Sparrows anymore. In addition to that ED pimped up those AMRAAMs to make it even more supreme and player friendly...
A lot, being what ... specifically for the F-15, an IFF HUD cue, and missiles that are actually dangerous? Do you consider two things 'a lot'? ;)

In fact, scratch the missiles- all missiles were updated with this in mind.

 

On the other hand good planes like F-14, F-15 and F-16 were all over the place...in movies (Top Gun, Iron Eagle etc.), in TV commercials, music...it really made me sick back then...
Made you sick? Oh, poor you.

 

...and now you're pimping it up beyond imagination?!! ED should rather focus on creating a F-22 Raptor and placing it in game somewere in the future, it's another notch on realism scale but hell of a lot more solid than unrealistic Eagles...
Beyond imagination? ... How about a dose of reality here ... the F-15 only received a single update specific to itself, and that was the IFF HUD cue.

It doesn't even have most basic radar modes or automation modeled. Not that it's different for other planes, but hey, since we're focusing ...

 

Just my 2 cents here, but you've gotta understand my point...
I certainly understand your un-adulterated bias :)

 

I'll see what can be done with decreasing AIM-120 explosives and burst range at least making it equal to Alamo A or C. I know I won't pass many integrity checks with that edit but what the hell, many servers should make similar adjustments in order to remain interesting.

 

Cheers!

You can see whatever you like, but you'll be wrong. There was no 'fanboy crying' affecting ED's decisions. ED oversaw adjustment of missiles with input from various community members, including the Russian side (DUH!) and most importantly DOCUMENTATION ... including the most solid information that could be found regarding each missile in the game; missiles were then tuned to perform WITHIN THE LIMITATIONS OF THEIR PHYSICS ENGINE. Really, I'd have loved to see more complex missile modeling, but it isn't in the cards.

 

And really, a brand spanking new (by comparison), modern missile, equivalent to an R-27? Seriously.

 

What's next, we'll be saying that AIM-9M > R-73?


Edited by GGTharos
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^^ Falcon i think you didnt understand my post fully... Of course you can get killed instantly with all missiles... even with P60... BUT, we are talking percentages here, and maneuvering targets in a combat environment... thats when the numbers will show up overtime... and thats why F15s are harder to kill over a number of engagements... etc

 

And as i stated already, there is the wrong damage model for all planes... or in other words, the dead drones firing missiles...

 

Oh and 120 is MORE powerful than ER in FC2, not the other way around (as it should be) ;) Thats essentially part of the problem... and I think you misunderstood what i said in this respect..

 

 

:disgust:

 

The part of the problem is people forget its an active radar missile that will only give away its impending attack seconds from impact giving little time to evade. SARH gives the attack away at launch, so long shots are easy to evade.

 

this is only nantural in ARH vS SARH engagements and people flying older planes should take different tactics than the ones being used in FC1. Its just not going to work.

 

Since when the ER should be more powerfull than the C AMRAAM? care to put forward some data?

 

So please stop these conspiracy theories ok?

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Breakshot, if you want to talk "percentages", please supply statistics that have been developed with adequate controls. If you don't have that available, please google "confirmation bias".

 

My personal experience is that a hit by an ER kills me outright about as often as a hit by an AIM-120C does, and in both cases it is a relatively common (but still minority) occurance that I get to at least try an emergency landing.

 

EtherealN, direct hits are direct enough to make your plane inoperable instantly. If your pilot remains alive you should be focused on abandoning the bird you fly. But what's interesting and veeery unrealistic is a F-15C that flies and fights as nothing happened. I was in a fight where I fired 2*R-27R in a 2 sec salvo from within 10 km at a F-15C and I thought both missed when player turned towards me and launched 3*AiM-9 at me. My Flares were useless and I was hanging a chute within seconds but when reviewing ACMI later on I noticed that BOTH Alamos scored or exploded wery close to F-15C (I'm talking literally under it's wing). It was 3 or 4 meters from Eagle when missiles bleached out in ACMI and I remember seeing 2 explosions. I turned away considering it splashed and tried to fall back away from that area when those Winders came up my tailpipe. That particular Eagle was the only Blue bird within 30 kms and I was stunned. OK my mistake was in not seeing it fall from the sky and meeting his shadow, guess I was drinking champaigne a bit too early but again c'mon!

 

I always though that explosions and smoketrails of splashed birds are a bit too theatrical, I've never seen a fuel ladden drone smoke so much when hit IRL and if you remember a 1983 incident with KAL007 where Soviet Su-15 had to fire two K-8 to bring it down. So I guess all of the FC missiles are a bit too good especially those new pimped AMRAAMs...no way to survive if it's within 50m from your canopy...

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You have to view the TRACK, not the ACMI. The ACMI is not trustworthy enough for this purpose. For all you know, your missiles detonated on chaff. There are OTHER possibilities, and I've certainly seen instances of all sorts of planes taking very minimal damage from AIM-9's, more rarely so from 120's.

And FYI, 120C triggering fuze is 15m. Same for R-77.

 

And don't pretend like it only happens to you ... I've seen MiGs and Flankers do the same ;)


Edited by GGTharos

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Can't say 15m...I saw explosion much further than 15m and both engines were gone...

 

GGT don't get me wrong, I also hate seeing ER and ET with Flankers and R-77 with Fulcrum C in FC2.0 MP. Why? 'Cause it's way off...How often did you see ER and ET on a Su-27...rarely! There's a 20:1 ratio in R:ER, same or similar with T and ET. R-77...are there any functional IRL?

 

I try keeping it real when in MP...MiG-29A and Su-27P with R and T, people should try fighting like that, it's more difficult, it more demanding but it's more realistic IMHO. And yes, I don't hide from F-15C players when I see 'em. In fact I very much own it with Fulcrum A!


Edited by Vekkinho

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I noticed that BOTH Alamos scored or exploded wery close to F-15C (I'm talking literally under it's wing). It was 3 or 4 meters from Eagle when missiles bleached out in ACMI and I remember seeing 2 explosions.

 

 

Plane icons on ACMI are about 4 to 5 times larger than the actual 3D object ingame, so while it may have seemed close or a direct hit, could have been like 150 feet away from the actual aircraft, thus not producing appreciable damage. he probably limped back home with hydraulic and fuel leaks.

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Can't say 15m...I saw explosion much further than 15m and both engines were gone...

 

... then you had a network issue :/

Same thing as me seeing R-27ET launched 6nm ahead of me, 90 deg to my flight path, EXPLODING 5nm in front of me, and I go boom.

 

GGT don't get me wrong, I also hate seeing ER and ET with Flankers and R-77 with Fulcrum C in FC2.0 MP. Why? 'Cause it's way off...How often did you see ER and ET on a Su-27...rarely! There's a 20:1 ratio in R:ER, same or similar with T and ET. R-77...are there any functional IRL?

 

Look, that's great, but going off on 'fanboy crying' and accusations of ED selling out/testers not knowing what they're doing/wild assumptions about who did what and why are neither helpful, nor appreciated.

 

I'll tell you right now we had a plan to make the 27 family more deadly, and then the devs delivered some important (RL) information concerning the fuze that made us sit up and go 'oh ... seriously? That sucks'.

All this blaming 'the f-15 fanboy crying' is pure BS, wether you like it or not.

The way these missiles are tuned right now represent the best KNOWLEDGE we have about those missiles, combined with some compromizes necessary to make them work within the game engine.

 

There was very little guessing made here; everything was tuned according to one philosophy:

Make the missile (any missile) respected, ie. force the pilot to turn away from it + DATA.

 

Stuff you experience in MP, I'm sorry to say, is heavily, heavily tainted by latency issues, from little things that make things look like they happened 'right' when they didn't, to attrocious things like missiles hitting you from 100's of meters away to flying loops around you.

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