Jump to content

ME: optimal tanker track?


VTJS17_Fire
 Share

Recommended Posts

I tried to set a optimal track for the KC-10, but I'm not happy with my result.

 

First try:

I set wp01 as "begin loop". WP02, 03 an 04 are set as "fly over point". WP05 is here "end loop".

Issue: The tanker tries to follow the exact route on waypoints and rectified to much. Horrible to follow this tanker.

 

Second try:

I set WP01 as "begin loop". WP02, 03, and 04 are "turning points". WP05 is again "end loop".

Issue: The tanker flows to WP04, turn some rounds and tracks somewhere ...

 

Third try:

WP01 is again "begin loop". WP 02, 03, 04 and 05 are "turning points".

Issue: The tanker follows all waypoints but don't begin a new loop on WP01.

 

 

Which action should I set on WP04 and WP05?

Thanks for help.

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use method 2. I deal with the tanker two ways:

 

1 - Make is slow, ~300 knots

 

2 - Make it travel far before turning, usually the tanker might go a distance equal traveling from Sochi to Kutaisi between waypoint 1 and 2

 

The tanker flows to WP04, turn some rounds and tracks somewhere ...

 

What does that mean?

[sIGPIC]http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk187/Exorcet/F-15singaturebaseACOmodifiedcomp-1.jpg[/sIGPIC]

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The tanker needs to be flying at about 315KIAS for F-15's.

 

Make the long legs 50-60nm (40 if you're good ;) ) and the 'short' legs 10nm. All 'corner points' should be turning points, and the end loop and begin loop should be on one of the legs, not on a corner.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 - Make it travel far before turning, usually the tanker might go a distance equal traveling from Sochi to Kutaisi between waypoint 1 and 2

 

That's a little bit wide, or? Real tracks are between 30 and 60nms. Sochi and Kutaisi ... maybe about 80 or 100 nms?

 

 

 

Make the long legs 50-60nm (40 if you're good ;) ) and the 'short' legs 10nm. All 'corner points' should be turning points, and the end loop and begin loop should be on one of the legs, not on a corner.

 

I have now 30nm for each leg (about 10nms for the intercept from the ARIP, 20nm for refuelling) and the "turning tracks" (short legs) are about 7kms. So the tanker don't fly this short track, but just a nice 180° turn to the next leg - like a race track pattern. The tanker is flying 310 KIAS. Perfect. :thumbup:

 

WP01: begin loop

WP02: turning point

WP03: turning point

WP04: end loop

 

WP01 and WP04 are just points at the beginning and the end of the wide legs. Waypoints are not stacked.

 

 

EDIT:

The FAQs say, in an AAR mission should'nt be winds. What is, if I set winds at ground and at 8.000 meters, but no winds at 2000 meters. My tanker is flying at Angels 18 (about 5700m). Are there winds in this altitude, with my weather settings?

 

 

Thanks - kind regards,

Fire


Edited by VTJG17_Fire

Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use only two waypoints in a loop, 50 km long when I want it short, or something like 80 km. Though, it is not very good when the tanker turns.

 

I have now 30nm for each leg (about 10nms for the intercept from the ARIP, 20nm for refuelling) and the "turning tracks" (short legs) are about 7kms. So the tanker don't fly this short track, but just a nice 180° turn to the next leg - like a race track pattern. The tanker is flying 310 KIAS. Perfect. :thumbup:

 

Well, I'll try that. A nice racetrack would be fine :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fire, you should be good as long as there is no wind in the mission at the tanker's altitude.

 

Logic would say that the 3 settings in the editor are:

at Ground: 0 -1999m

at 2000m: 2000m - 8000m

at 8000m: 8000m +

 

So, were you able to get a nice rectangular patter for the tanker? I use WP1 - Loop, WP2 - Turn, WP3 - Turn, WP4 - End loop as well, but the tanker never makes a nice turn at any of the turns. It makes a very strange wide turn at each. Would be nice to be able to get a nice rectangular race track pattern.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My tanker settings are follows:

 

- Altitude: 18.000 ft.

- GS: 400kts (305KIAS)

 

The short leg (WP02 - WP03 and WP04 - WP01) are now 8.6 km wide. So the tanker turns a nice, easy 45° bank right hand turn and roll out on the correct heading, without any corrections (only some 2-4 degrees).

 

The only problem is now, the leg separation. IRL (German Air Force), the minimum are 8nm for leg separation. But IRL, tankers fly 15° bank turns, in Lock On the tanker fly always 45° ... to much!

 

But otherwise, my tanker track is fine. :smartass:

 

Here is the WIP Mission: http://www.fileuploadx.de/725199

 

 

On the 34nm leg, two trained pilots can refuel full internal, with optimum intercept before the leg.

 

 

kind regards,

Fire


Edited by VTJG17_Fire

Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a little bit wide, or? Real tracks are between 30 and 60nms. Sochi and Kutaisi ... maybe about 80 or 100 nms?

Whatever it takes to get the AI to work.

[sIGPIC]http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk187/Exorcet/F-15singaturebaseACOmodifiedcomp-1.jpg[/sIGPIC]

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Fire for sharing! So, if you set the longer legs to something longer than 34nm, will they still make a good turn into the short legs?

 

I think yes. Practical, there are no short legs. In the ME you have the short leg, but that legs are so short, that the tanker can't roll out on these legs, so it flies two 90° turns, one after the other - without a break.

 

I think the more important factor is the speed. If it flies slower, the turn radius is smaller and it can roll out on the short leg. It is faster, maybe it passes the first TP (WP03, WP01) and has to correct its course.

 

 

Here is a real tanker track example: Anchor Angie

I use such charts to brief my squadron mates.

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whatever it takes to get the AI to work.

 

Yeah, only for AI it goes - maybe, I don't know how good the AI is with fuel management.

But if you want to refuel AI and human pilots, there is one big problem. If you go to the tanker, the most reason is you have few fuel!

 

 

Example:

Your tanker flies a west-east track (270° / 090°). Your threat direction is east and your tanker is 30nm behind the FLOT (or FEBA). The leg length is 80nm.

 

If your pilot comes from the FLOT and want to refuel, he has to search the tanker - if there are no times or ARIPs triggered, you have the first problem: Find a tanker with your radar (or in the Hog without radar) that flies cold from you at 80-120 nm - bad.

 

Second problem: You found the tanker but it turns currently on the west leg. You have to intercept it on this leg, with less closure speed or you take the afterburner ... :doh:

Or you wait, till the tanker turns on the east-leg - about 20 minutes later.

 

 

For human pilots only, I don't see disadvantages with short legs. You have a short distance to intercept, if the tanker flies on the "cold leg".

And if the pilots are not trained, you can refuel the lead on the cold leg and the wingman on the hot leg. About 34nm for each and you are not far away from the FLOT, if you're finished.

Maybe, you can directly committ from the hot leg in threat direction.

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What about a track perpendicular to the "home - threat" axis ? Or is that just unreallistic ? Anyway, as far as humans are concerned, I agree with shorter legs - don't know about AIs.

 

Thanks a lot for sharing those ! So what it means is that for each ground speed, there is a specific "short leg" distance for the tanker to make nice turns. So that care must be taken if you change the altitude or the speed of the tanker.

 

BTW, do you set the parameters directly in knots and feet in the Mission Editor ? If so, that's a feature from the ME mod ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What about a track perpendicular to the "home - threat" axis ? Or is that just unreallistic ?

 

Negative, not unrealistic.

I don't know, how tracks are set in combat missions (AIF, ODS) but I know a lot of charts from the German Air Force (maybe they work for NATO, too). There, you have definied tracks in specific areas, such as called "Anchor Gini" or so.

German Military Flight Information Publication

 

For that tracks, you have a defined route (anchor and turning points - set by geographic points like long/ lat, leg length, leg separation, magnetic course and so on). For that tracks count specific (rendezvous) procedures.

 

Example:

a. RV Alpha (Anchor RV).

This is a procedure directed by a radar control station, whether

ground based, seaborne, or airborne (AEW); details are at Part 2 Annex 1A.

 

b. RV Bravo.

This is a heading based procedure which utilises air-to-air equipment of both

tanker and receiver. The tanker controls the procedure; details are at Part 2 Annex 1B.

 

c. RV Charlie.

This is a heading based procedure similar to the RV Bravo which allows

receivers with an Airborne Intercept (AI) radar to control the procedure once positive AI radar contact is established; details are at Part 2 Annex 1C.

 

d. RV Delta (Point Parallel).

This procedure requires the receiver to maintain an agreed track

and the tanker to maintain the reciprocal track, offset a pre-determined distance; details are at Part 2 Annex 1D.

 

e. RV Echo (Timing).

This procedure is intended for use in support of a combat air patrol

(CAP); particularly during periods of EMCON constraints; details are at Part 2 Annex 1E

 

f.RV Foxtrot (Sequenced).

This procedure is normally used when the tanker and receiver

operate from the same base; details of the accompanied/buddy climb and tailchase departure are at Part 2 Annex 1F.

 

g. RV Golf (En-route).

This procedure facilitates join up on a common track to make good a

scheduled time. The receivers may have departed either from the same or different bases. There are a number of enroute RVs; details are at Part 2 Annex 1G.

 

 

source: ATP-56(B)

 

 

I read, that in combat missions, sometimes the GCI/ AWACS forward the tanker in the fighters direction, so they have less distance to fly.

 

 

 

BTW, do you set the parameters directly in knots and feet in the Mission Editor ? If so, that's a feature from the ME mod ?

 

The ME in FC 2.0/ DCS:BS works only with metric units. I use this and that website for calculation between metric and imperial units.

 

 

kind regards,

Fire


Edited by VTJG17_Fire

Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Negative, not unrealistic.

 

Allright, therefore, for those who would rather have long refueling legs, an anchor track axis set 90° from the likely incoming fighters would be a viable solution. I for one would still go for rather short tracks with experienced pilots.

 

The ME in FC 2.0/ DCS:BS works only with metric units. I use this and that website for calculation between metric and imperial units.

Okay, I was just wondering if this was a new feature ;)

 

By the way, 600 km/h GS and 5.6 km leg separation also works ;)

 

I'll take a look at your document. For the record, there is also this RAF document on aerial refueling:book:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the record, there is also this RAF document on aerial refueling:book:

 

That's the same link, I've posted. ;)

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...