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CBU-87 "5-mil" CCIP: Invalid fuzing


kingneptune117

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TY Tyger, will do.

 

But I'd like to see some stuff more detailed in the manual anyway...

 

;)

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He says, "effects on the ground in relation to the HOF set for the CBU87 is correct."

 

This isn't true. Set up two CBU-87s one INV'd at 3000' HOF and one at 300' HOF on a level drop from 4000'. They will make IDENTICAL ground patterns.

 

Just for giggles the CBU-87 never has a live FZU-39. The CBU-87A has a live FZU-39. The CBU-87B has a live FZU-39 and also has BLU-97A bomblets instead of the BLU-97 bomblets found in the original and A models.

 

I'm omitting the /B designation since it shows up on everything and just gets confusing when mixed with the real (),A,B,C versions of things.


Edited by Frederf
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  • 5 weeks later...

Had this problem today, and found tyger's information to indeed be true. A true "Doh" moment if I ever had one.

 

Now if I could just actually HIT something with these damn things!

Yes I own both DCS simulations but cant be assed figuring out how to place those fancy pictures here.

 

I also own a computer with several parts in it!

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Just for giggles the CBU-87 never has a live FZU-39. The CBU-87A has a live FZU-39. The CBU-87B has a live FZU-39 and also has BLU-97A bomblets instead of the BLU-97 bomblets found in the original and A models.

 

 

Can you clarify what you mean in that statement?

 

 

 

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Im still trying to work through his HOF thing. HOF is set by the load crew and there is no way to set it in flight. On the 103/105s yeah you can change it in flight because the bomb is connected to the A/C. but with the 87/97 the bomb is not connected to the A/C at all. So im thinking that when you set HOF in the pit your setting it to what the Load crew set it to. This is just a guess if anyone has documentation that says other wise im game to read it. But just looking at the theory here its impossible to select HOF with out the bomb being connected to the A/C

 

 

 

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WeaponZ248, I think the impression is that fuze settings can be done via the pit i.e. operation. What you and I see is the solenoids that hold the links and electrical arming off to the fuzzys. Perhaps you could explain the electrical mechanical interface if not let me know and I will give it a go.

 

Gunnie (p.s. still no address for me to send some Australian Armourer stuff to you mate)

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Can you clarify what you mean in that statement?

 

Simply that there are (at least) 3 versions of the CBU-87, the original, the A, and the B. An original CBU-87 with a FZU-39 is a contradiction because the -39 makes it a CBU-87A. Similarly the upgraded "A" bomblets makes it a CBU-87B.

 

Im still trying to work through his HOF thing. HOF is set by the load crew and there is no way to set it in flight. On the 103/105s yeah you can change it in flight because the bomb is connected to the A/C. but with the 87/97 the bomb is not connected to the A/C at all. So im thinking that when you set HOF in the pit your setting it to what the Load crew set it to. This is just a guess if anyone has documentation that says other wise im game to read it. But just looking at the theory here its impossible to select HOF with out the bomb being connected to the A/C

 

There are fuzes like FMU-139 where you can set (in-flight) arming delay (coded pulses) and that's not a 1760 standard interface. Apparently that's a USN thing that requires the FFCS which the USAF doesn't use. There are interfaces other than 1760. However, I am trying really hard to find out if the FZU-39 can be set for HOF/spin in-fight. I can't get a solid yes or no answer either way. There are physical thumbwheels on the TMD (yay pictures) for those settings so it's looking like it's a "inform the jet of the truth" situation.

 

Are you sure the WCMD CBUs allow such settings? Just because it's 1760 doesn't mean that necessarily AD, HOF, spin are controllable. The only thing I can find that suggests it is is this: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/usaf/docs/mast/annex_f/part06.htm

 

2. Improved multiple kill per pass capability for existing CBUs (CEM, GATOR and SFW variants) by providing cockpit-selectable, variable weapon laydown patterns.

 

Either way ED seems adamantly against acknowledging that bomb fuzes exist with any sort of detail. Digging through the files it's clear that airbursting, functioning time, bomblet arming minimum speed, SFW mechanization, battery life, HOF, spin, AD, etc simply aren't even attempted. It took several patches after DCS:BS was released for ED to realize that the Mission Planner interface was a necessary component to the game. I don't have high hopes for weapon configuration planning and accurate fuze function to surface.

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Hmmm well I understand that there are more than 1760 conections but in the A-10 its the only connection as far as bombs go that is electrical. So as for the CBU-87/97 goes what the load crew sets is what the HOF is but as far as the WCMDs go im 95% positive that you can adjust HOF thru the pit.(still researching)

 

 

 

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It took several patches after DCS:BS was released for ED to realize that the Mission Planner interface was a necessary component to the game. I don't have high hopes for weapon configuration planning and accurate fuze function to surface.

 

It didn't take several patches for them to realize, the striking reality is just that every item on the whishlist cannot be implemented instantly.

 

Feature creep ruins software development companies in this business, so for the sake of our sanity, get in touch with software development reality.

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.....Either way ED seems adamantly against acknowledging that bomb fuzes exist with any sort of detail. Digging through the files it's clear that airbursting, functioning time, bomblet arming minimum speed, SFW mechanization, battery life, HOF, spin, AD, etc simply aren't even attempted. It took several patches after DCS:BS was released for ED to realize that the Mission Planner interface was a necessary component to the game. I don't have high hopes for weapon configuration planning and accurate fuze function to surface.....

 

Are you blissfully ignorant or just argumentative for the sole purpose of provoking argument? I sincerely hope it's the former, in which case attempts can be made to rectify the situation amicably.

 

How many times does one have to repeat that it's not an 'All-or-Nothing' scenario, but rather a 'Step-by-Step' process. Are you privvy to the internal workings/plans of the relevant weapons Devs?

 

I'll help you with that one......No!

 

Notwithstanding that fact, you take it upon yourself to speak on behalf of ED and comment on the likely path that the development is taking/going to take and all of the afore-said based on a wholly out-dated build. WTF is that all about?

 

Suffice to say the 'conclusions' you arrive at are wrong. And no, I will not justify why......You are just going to have to be patient with us all. In the meantime kindly refrain from half-a$$ed conjecture based on digging through outdated builds.

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Alrighty then...

 

Regarding the CBU-87 series, the CBU-87/B had a field-installed FZU-39 prox fuze, while the CBU-87A/B had a factory-installed FZU-39 prox fuse.

 

The CBU-87B/B has the newer BLU-97A/B bomblets which feature a mechanical firing mechanism vice the electric mechanism of the baseline BLU-97/B.

 

The CBU-87C/B configuration uses the newer FZU-39D/B fuze.

 

The pilot has a limited ability to affect fuzing/functionin, through the selection of nose, tail, nose/tail fuzing options.

 

Selection of NOSE will result in timer fuzing only; selection of NOSE/TAIL will result in proximity fusing if an FZU-39 is installed, else timer fusing will result. Selection of TAIL fusing is invalid and will result in a dud.

 

These selections also affect IFFCC Real-Time Safe Escape and MRC/MRS symbology cues.

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Are you blissfully ignorant or just argumentative for the sole purpose of provoking argument? I sincerely hope it's the former, in which case attempts can be made to rectify the situation amicably.

 

How many times does one have to repeat that it's not an 'All-or-Nothing' scenario, but rather a 'Step-by-Step' process. Are you privvy to the internal workings/plans of the relevant weapons Devs?

 

I'll help you with that one......No!

 

Notwithstanding that fact, you take it upon yourself to speak on behalf of ED and comment on the likely path that the development is taking/going to take and all of the afore-said based on a wholly out-dated build. WTF is that all about?

 

Suffice to say the 'conclusions' you arrive at are wrong. And no, I will not justify why......You are just going to have to be patient with us all. In the meantime kindly refrain from half-a$$ed conjecture based on digging through outdated builds.

 

Thank god for that................................................!:thumbup:

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Alrighty then...

 

Regarding the CBU-87 series, the CBU-87/B had a field-installed FZU-39 prox fuze, while the CBU-87A/B had a factory-installed FZU-39 prox fuse.

 

The CBU-87B/B has the newer BLU-97A/B bomblets which feature a mechanical firing mechanism vice the electric mechanism of the baseline BLU-97/B.

 

The CBU-87C/B configuration uses the newer FZU-39D/B fuze.

 

The pilot has a limited ability to affect fuzing/functionin, through the selection of nose, tail, nose/tail fuzing options.

 

Selection of NOSE will result in timer fuzing only; selection of NOSE/TAIL will result in proximity fusing if an FZU-39 is installed, else timer fusing will result. Selection of TAIL fusing is invalid and will result in a dud.

 

These selections also affect IFFCC Real-Time Safe Escape and MRC/MRS symbology cues.

 

I was actually just reading up on that in the 34-1. Either way I think that applies to 87/97 more though than the WCMDs. Im still reading through but I thibk the pilot has the ability to change HOF on WCMDs.


Edited by Weaponz248

 

 

 

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So you're telling me that if I set to N/T, the prox fuze will burst the canister and the ground effect will be correct, but the animation will not be?

 

 

Yes I do believe so. Remember that HOF will go at that hieght where as a nose only will do a time feature which for example if set to 5 will activate 5 secs after the bomb is armed(released) from the jet. So in all honesty HOF will allow you to kinda set your area where as timer will give you more of the general spread but on a timed delay. I would say HOF is the best way to go but if you have to drop a CBU real quick like than NOSE only and you should be good.

 

 

 

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Just thought I would add something in relation to the whole 1760 connection "thing". In the RAAF as armourers we were a fair bit different to other military forces as we maintained the weapons, did the prep, loaded and also tested the jet and were also cross trained as avionics and radar. As we maintained such interfaces I would that I would point out that the 1553 & 1760 stuff is not normally ever used for fuze delays and programming because you are referring to a digital interface as opposed to electrical mechanical (yes some smart weapons use it but not a FMU-139 fuze !). To explain for an example what that the 1760 bus stuff allows to do (and not used or modeled as such with the A-10 I beleive) would be is a AIM-9 on station 1 has acquired with its guidance head a target but you want to use the AIM-9 on station 9 but its head has the aircraft body blocking the weapons guidance head so the 1760 bus will allow the X/Y coordinates from station 1 to be applied to the station 9 weapon just before launch and when fired will acquire the target. This is the same example of how helmet mounted sights are used on high off boresight weapons release (a standard AIM-9M only has a field of view of 26 deg off missile boresight where say Python4 can get 90deg and ASRAAM pretty much the same). I would not want to talk for the A-10 avionics guys but its obviously the interface that allows the TGP to designate or lock to a target and then allow Mav's to slave to that point (the same principal as I explained with AIM-9 but I made the example so that all would understand).

 

Remember that with 1760 we are talking about a new type of digital interface that is 1553 compliant and where it additionally allows some power to a weapon and pins for analog (eg open/closed circuits) and fibre optics for the future.

 

Hope it helps & the offer is open to anyone who wants to read my poor spelling and rantings for me to write a burst on the interfaces that weapons use to interface to aircraft.

 

Gunnie


Edited by gunnie101
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As for 1760 on A-10 It gives us the ability to talk to JDAM and WCMDs. With the 152 series fuze we can also change setting from the pit.

 

The 139 keeps coming up. The FMU-139 is a mechanical fuze and nothing more and drive is hooked up to it from the FZU-48 which when open allows the drive to rotate which than turns the 139 and then arms and BOOM. The FZu-39 in nothing more than a sensor that when it gets to X feet says time to open boys.

 

I could spend hours on this stuff but without seeing it most won't grasp it.

 

 

 

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Good words Load Toad ! - I will expand a little the FZU-48 (so that we all know what we are talking about) is a device that operates after the bomb leaves the aircraft, it pops out and is a windmill that spins in the airflow to provide an electrical/mechanical signal to the FMU-139 fuse (in the rear of the weapon) that arms it.

 

On some other aircraft like a F-18 (and not the A-10) there is a cable that plugs into the FMU-139 that can plug into a special orange connector in the BRU-32 bomb rack that allows programming by the pilot.

 

There may be confusion to some as they google a topic and get the manufacturers page and think it applies to the A-10. Can we give WeaponZ248 a chance to explain how it works as we all will benefit from someone who does it for a living.

 

Gunnie


Edited by gunnie101
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