Tactics advice, please?!

[MBT]

In the attached mission I've set up myself and a wingy in German Mig-29A's against two Turkish F4's (one high, one good). Everyone starts on the ground about 50km apart, and I've even given myself AWACS support. Whatever I do I'm toast! They've got AIM-7's, I've got R27's, but they always seem to get me and my boy in short order.

 

What would those who don't suck at air to air do??

Luft_Mig29_Intercept.mis.txt

[Ironhand]

If I recall correctly, the F-4 does NOT have pulse doppler radar. Take off, climb to 2000 m and wait for him to come up for you. Then as he gets in range to lock you up, start slowly losing altitude and he won't be able to maintain his lock (his radar has no look down capability). During all this time, of course, you'll be able to keep him on your radar, can lock and launch against him.

 

Rich

[D-Scythe]

Hmm, if Ironhand's advice doesn't work, go to the training tracks and look up the 3 missile evasion techniques that they show. I personally like the second one best, but the 3rd (the barrel role evasion) is excellent for SARH engagement if you can master it.

 

In any case, look for the R-73 kill, not the R-27. As for you wingman, tell him to pincer low before the engagement starts - missiles have a harder time at low altitude, which gives him more time to live. So Pincer low + wait till he gets low + Engage Bandits, in that order. Then, after you kill your bandit, double team the last one.

[Ironhand]

MBT,

 

It helps to know your opponent. Here is a track demonstrating what I mentioned above. I only spent a quick 15 minutes on this when I got home from work so it is far from polished. It's also the first time in ages I've been in the MiG-29's cockpit flying A2A. So please bear with me. This is recorded with voiceover to help explain what I'm doing and why: MiG-29_vs_F-4-Ironhand.zip. (The track is V1.1.)

 

Hope it helps.

 

Rich

[BuzzU]

Will that work in 1.1 Rich?

[coldcrew]

Hey this is an interesting mission.

 

As soon as I took off I gained altitude as much as I could, about 6k compared to the 2k there were at. Just before I got LA, I overrode it and fired, I fired a second r27 which scored the hit. My wingman shot down the other plane and then I got hit by an aim7 from the second f4e.

 

edit: I can survive now but my wingman does all the killing! lol. I feel bad having the AI bail me out :)

 

http://www.verbalass.com/mig_vs_f4.trk

http://www.verbalass.com/mig_vs_f4_2.trk

[Ironhand]

Will that work in 1.1 Rich?

 

Yes. In fact, the track is V1.1. I should probably go back and edit my post to reflect that. BTW, you don't have to do anything fancy with your wingman except assign him the target you choose for him. Lock the target and tell him to "Attack my target." Then break your lock and pick a target for yourself. In the track, I assigned the lead a/c to my wingnut (my usual tactic) and took the trailer for myself since he's the most dangerous one. (He's the one who'll blow you out of the sky while you're preoccupied with the leader.)

 

Rich

[BBQ]

Ironhand--is there any resource within the program (or documentation) that gives us this important information? I looked in the encyclopedia--and it doesn't say what kind of radar the different a/c possess.

[KuostA]

I think thats just common knowledge for Rich ;)

[BBQ]

I was afraid that would be the answer ;)

 

Knowing your adversary is of the utmost importance--among other things, knowing FBR, or Factor Bandit Range, is vital as well.

[Ironhand]

Ironhand--is there any resource within the program (or documentation) that gives us this important information? I looked in the encyclopedia--and it doesn't say what kind of radar the different a/c possess.

 

That's just something I recall reading somewhere--I think it was at the Journal of Electronic Defense Online site (jedonline.com) back when it was free and still went by that name. It used to be an excellent free resource. Now it's called eDefense Online (edefenseonline.com) and is a pay site--$400/yr USD. No. I'm not a member.

 

Rich

[MBT]

Wow, excellent stuff! Thanks very much Rich & D-Sycthe! I'll give the track a look and see what I can pick up from the master ;)

 

The depth of things continues to confound me - I assumed the F4's had the same kind of radar as me, and that I might be able to notch them, but if they don't have a pulse doppler set that wouldn't work would it? That might explain why my one good idea fails every time...

[MBT]

I was afraid that would be the answer ;)

 

Knowing your adversary is of the utmost importance--among other things, knowing FBR, or Factor Bandit Range, is vital as well.

FBR??

[Greco]

Ironhand,

 

Once again, thanks for your efforts....is there anything about LOMAC you don't know??......

 

Keep the great info coming,

 

Greco

[BBQ]

FBR = Factor Bandit Range

 

This is the range that an enemy aircraft can "reach out and touch you" with his weapons. If you know that a certain aircraft can only employ weapons on you within 10 nm, you know to stay out of that range, and employ your weapons so he can't ever get a missile on you. Knowing the enemy a/c's FBR can allow you to use certain tactics (pincer, etc.) to your advantage, while exploiting their weaknesses.

 

FBR would be just one advantage falling under the "know thy enemy" axiom--in addition to knowing their radar type, as Ironhand so pointedly showed us with his track.

 

 

FBR??

[Guest ruggbutt]

I've heard it referred to as WEZ, even when regarding enemy aircraft.

[BBQ]

Yup, I've heard WEZ, too. I learned from a Navy Controller--so perhaps "FBR" is more from a controller's perspective, vectoring flights into fights, out of fights, etc., having to know the enemy a/c in order to make prudent decisions on tactics, etc.

[Ironhand]

Ironhand,

 

Once again, thanks for your efforts....is there anything about LOMAC you don't know??......

 

Keep the great info coming,

 

Greco

Thanks.

 

As far the F-4s are concerned, I read something about their radars a few years ago, set up a test mission, and it worked. I thought "Cool!", filed the info away, and have never considered the F-4 a serious threat since. MBT just happened to pick the right aircraft.

 

Rich

[MBT]

Rich, I watched the track, and have learnt from that, although you seem to be able to do things in a more relaxed manner than I end up getting in!

 

For fun I then replaced the F-4's with F-16C's, and added a follow-on strike package of F-4's (just for extra targets, now that they hold no fear for me :D ). I realised the same trick wouldn't work with the F-16's, so what I did was to hang around on this side of the terrain at low level, hoping to let them come in close enough for a HOJ shot. However, at low level you burn through before they get close enough for a shot, so it ended up being a straight fight. Surprisingly I won, but I didn't employ any tactic other than staying low, trying to stay amongst the hills, and surprisingly dodging some missiles!

 

BBQ, thanks for the clarification.

[enigma6584]

Rich, I watched the track, and have learnt from that, although you seem to be able to do things in a more relaxed manner than I end up getting in!

 

For fun I then replaced the F-4's with F-16C's, and added a follow-on strike package of F-4's (just for extra targets, now that they hold no fear for me :D ). I realised the same trick wouldn't work with the F-16's, so what I did was to hang around on this side of the terrain at low level, hoping to let them come in close enough for a HOJ shot. However, at low level you burn through before they get close enough for a shot, so it ended up being a straight fight. Surprisingly I won, but I didn't employ any tactic other than staying low, trying to stay amongst the hills, and surprisingly dodging some missiles!

 

BBQ, thanks for the clarification.

 

So...you are having fun?

[MBT]

Oh definitely!

[enigma6584]

Oh definitely!

 

LOL! Good, that is what this sim is supposed to accomplish. Now, it may have already been mentioned in a previous post but be sure to check out the training tracks on missile avoidance that came with the game. I've relooked at those myself and learned a bit of things I didn't realize before. Now I just need to practice them. Ironhand's material is second to none in many respects so be sure to visit his site often.

 

There is also another video done by one of ruggbutt's cronies called "F-Pole," somewhere around here. Take a look at that one as well because it gives another excellent tutorial about missile combat tactics.

 

Last but not least, keep asking your questions because this community is made up of a good bunch of people willing to share their knowledge and experience.

 

Cheers.