Wind correcting Dumb Bomb Delivery

[MaverickF22]

I didn't say anything about trying to use MK-82 AIR as a precision bomb..., so i didn't want to be misunderstood!

 

The reason why i dropped it from such altitude was to show that there is something going wrong with how the bomb's trajectory evolves since the bomb is released.

 

So the only thing..., that i wanted to make clear is that there is something wrong, because instead of having a 0 (ZERO) horizontal speed after the bomb has finally settled to a 90 deg dive..., it continues to move horizontally at a steady, constant speed of about 6-7m/s in a random (always different for each bomb release) direction and so it goes completely off course every time. A real MK-82 AIR drag bomb has no reason whatsoever to go sideways after being launched, and even so..., if it rests at 90 deg of dive then it means the drag had diminished any possible horizontal airspeed component which may act on the bomb, so these two things..., the fact that the bomb is on a -90 deg pitch attitude and there is still movement in the horizontal plane (or sideways), don't add up.:book:

 

Also in the video, i've shown that even other dumb bombs, like MK-82 and MK-84 have a habit to be pointed in another direction then the one they are traveling on, but this doesn't seem to behave the way it does with the MK-82 AIR, because they will always hold the correct flight path, on which they were launched, so this isn't such a big issue, except for the fact that it looks bad!

 

So, i'm not willing to drop drag air bombs from high altitude and expect them to be precise..., but i want them to follow a real, predictable path, that's it!:pilotfly:

I just want to help make DCS better, that's all! And that's one of the main reasons why i want to buy all their products every time and tell when i find something abnormal, because i'm both a pilot and an aircraft engineer, so i don't want to be arrogant, but i know how things should happen in certain cases.

 

 

Cheers,

Maverick.

Edited May 31, 2013 by MaverickF22

[Maverick-X]

I think I get what your problem is... After the bomb has reached a 90° dive angle, it should travel straight down (given that the wind is exactly 0m/s), meaning watched from above stays in the exact same spot relative to the ground. I guess I will test this if I'm bored ^^

 

The reason I've searched for this thread is the correct procedure for LASTE input. I wonder how to get wind data. The hdg/spd given in the WP-page for example changes if I input something in the Laste page. Is there a reliable, independet source for wind? (I know ATC gives you heading and speed [-180° and spd in m/s...], but thats only surface wind.

 

I know even laste-corrected, you wont get pinpoint accuracy for ironbombs, but I'd like to at last be able to reliably hit soft to light armored targets with ironbombs from heights above Igla range ^^

[MaverickF22]

Hi there Dynamo,

 

 

Excuse me if i ask, but could you please take the time and post a track file regarding the exact way that you did or something similar in order to have dumb bombs correctly driven on the target using the CCRP mode, when having wind conditions?

 

Take the same example that you've been using with the 15m/s constant wind, and drop your MK-84's or 82's from an altitude of at least 6000 feet (as you used in your post) and please show me and everyone else around here..., how to correctly use the LASTE function in order to make the proper wind corrections.

 

 

Thanks in advance Dynamo..., a lot of us depend on your track.

 

Have a good day!:thumbup:

[MaverickF22]

Read this thread: 476th vFG, 76th vFS "Battle Book". And I mean all of it. It should answer your question

 

EDIT: The download mentioned in the first post can be found here: 76th vFS Battle Book.

 

 

Hi there PhoenixBvo...!

 

 

I suppose you didn't quite read or understand all that i was saying about various problems that i have found!

 

Thank you for the link there but..., i don't know how to say..., it didn't resolve nor answer my questions in any form..., as these problems that were found have nothing to do with how to use real life procedures for approaching a target or how to employ the CCIP (which works perfectly though), because there are some bugs that have to be taken care of, or at least re-verified by an ED tester, or things don't look too good!

 

In those links i couldn't find anything (i hope i didn't miss anything) about CCRP employment and how to properly use it, not just in wind conditions (which we'll see after, how it turns LASTE to work bad, if i'm right...), and why does the MK-82 always hit after/beyond the point where the TGP is set on and why does the MK-84 does just the opposite, by falling way before reaching the target or before the spot where the TGP is set! Not to talk about the MK-82 air drag bomb's bug, which can be seen from miles away as it always goes in different directions (sometimes even opposite from the initial one on which it was launched) with each release.

 

How are you going to answer about the LOFT and TOSS bombing employments which are often used as real life techniques in order to deliver your iron bombs on target (with very little calculation error if the pilot is perfectly lined up) using CCRP? You just can't..., and there's no argue about it, because you can't use these bombing methods in DCS with the A-10C, as long as this problem isn't solved!

 

Also another bug which i've found during these tests for which i've provided tracks for better investigation, is that the TGP's HUD cue..., sometimes goes wild in the top left corner of the HUD and reads (angle and distance) incorrect data, while the pod stays locked in the same position...! So for whatever reason, the TGP's cue on the HUD reads something else than what it is!

 

OK..., here are the tracks, which i hope..., will finally answer both me and you guys, what is wrong and what isn't done right (if is there anything), because these problems either get unseen by some of us or may not care, or simply don't realize that something isn't right..., but there definitely has to be done something about it..., cause we're going nowhere this way!

 

The first 3 tracks, will show you what's wrong with the CCRP with it's lack of ability to calculate EXACTLY when the moment of release should take place for each particular bomb (MK-82, MK-84, CBU's, whatever...), depending on the true aircraft's speed (because that is essential), on the angle of dive or climb and on air density which varies with altitude (except for the wind's effect)..., these whole parameters are normally calculated by the onboard computer (or the fire control computer) to virtually deliver your bomb EXACTLY (regardless of the realistic behaviour where each bomb's flight path is slightly different than the other..., thing that you will see either in the provided video or in the 4th track)! The CCIP does calculate perfect and as it should..., yet the CCRP is far from doing so..., why is this happening when there should be no calculating differences between these 2 modes, except for the way it helps you to deliver munitions?

 

A-10's CCRP and LASTE have bugs which no one has noticed!.trk

A-10's CCRP bad release with dive angle and releases different bombs with different errors!.trk

LASTE bugs.trk

 

Now the MK-82 air drag which has this very annoying behaviour by changing it's course immediately after release and not following a realistic path...:

 

MK-82 Air drag bomb has unsolved trajectory bugs, please consult!.trk

 

Here's a video that i've also provided, which passes through all of these issues, thus making it easier than consulting the track files individually..., for who doesn't want to waste time and can understand what's wrong!:

 

So now you will have my answer here, PhoenixBvo, and i hope that you'll read and view it..., "And I mean all of it. It should answer your question"!

 

 

And here's a video of how would these air drag bombs actually fall in a group and follow the same path..., not fly like popcorn all over the place...!:

 

 

 

Have a good day...!

Edited August 30, 2013 by MaverickF22

[MaverickF22]

I think I get what your problem is... After the bomb has reached a 90° dive angle, it should travel straight down (given that the wind is exactly 0m/s), meaning watched from above stays in the exact same spot relative to the ground. I guess I will test this if I'm bored ^^

 

The reason I've searched for this thread is the correct procedure for LASTE input. I wonder how to get wind data. The hdg/spd given in the WP-page for example changes if I input something in the Laste page. Is there a reliable, independet source for wind? (I know ATC gives you heading and speed [-180° and spd in m/s...], but thats only surface wind.

 

I know even laste-corrected, you wont get pinpoint accuracy for ironbombs, but I'd like to at last be able to reliably hit soft to light armored targets with ironbombs from heights above Igla range ^^

 

 

Thank God that at least someone here has seen and understood one of the problems that nobody wants to talk about or doesn't feel able to answer...!

 

Cheers to you too, Mav...!:thumbup:

 

 

Good day!

[gusanako]

Someone can tell me that I am not able to hit a target with dumb bombs in windy since version 1.2.3. I've been waiting three weeks an answer and Nobody is able to tell whether it is a bug or some new procedure that has to be done.

Regards

[MaverickF22]

Someone can tell me that I am not able to hit a target with dumb bombs in windy since version 1.2.3. I've been waiting three weeks an answer and Nobody is able to tell whether it is a bug or some new procedure that has to be done.

Regards

 

Well..., the procedure is what i've shown in the video that i've made in order to correct these bugs or problems, whatever they are...! It's just a way to get around these not understandable problems and bugs of both CCRP's employment for A-10C in DCS (which shouldn't differ from the A-10A, where the CCRP works better in terms that it calculates the same way no matter if you climb or dive when releasing, but always hits before reaching the targeted position, with all bomb types, so the CCRP on A-10A also has problems, but it's weird why it differs from A-10C) where you have to position the TGP cue somewhere behind or after the desired point of impact, in order to have the bomb drop where you want...! Now we didn't pay 40$ for the A-10C to jiggle with the TGP back and forth in order to correct for the bad CCRP's behaviour:P and not be able to do a dive TOSS bombing or LOFT bombing using CCRP, because it would throw the bomb far away! As well as the LASTE for correcting the wind's effect on the bomb, by not writing down more than one altitude layer (the altitude from where you desire to release the bomb), in order for it to work properly!

 

Now i'm no genius..., but indeed i'm a maniac simulator player, with an eye for every bug and thing which doesn't work the way it should or at least, which seems not to...! And if i wouldn't love and appreciate what the guys at DCS and ED have done already..., then i wouldn't even bother to tell what is going wrong and what should be corrected..., cause it's good to know what isn't right from an early stage and not string too far with uncorrected stuff/bugs!

 

 

Have a good day,

Maverick!

[gusanako]

The truth is that this issue is beginning to get angry. :mad::mad:I get angry because no tester is able to tell us what happens with dumb bombs + wind. I do not understand, people do not complain enough ... fly an A-10 with such problems in the laste is useless.

This is the post where we discussed this and no one is able to confirm the obvious, laste and shot calculation system do not work with wind since 1.2.3!

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1850236#post1850236

Edited August 28, 2013 by gusanako

[Maverick-X]

I guess the number of complaints is so low because of guided munitions...

Although there seems to be a problem with the calculation; if MavF22's Vid is correct and bombs really travel sideways in stable 90° dive without wind, its no surprise the calculation is wrong.

 

@MavF22: Dive Bombing is quite ok, if you leave wind behind. But I dont think release in Climb is a common method for unguided bombs

 

PS:

As well as the LASTE for correcting the wind's effect on the bomb, by not writing down more than one altitude layer (the altitude from where you desire to release the bomb), in order for it to work properly!

 

Never heard of that before, does it really give you kind of accurate solution?

[PFunk1606688187]

I guess the number of complaints is so low because of guided munitions...

 

Which is unfortunate because most people who sim a lot and don't just stop playing a sim after a few months know that the harder stuff becomes far more engrossing as time goes on. Those people also know how discouraging it is when you realize that those same hard things are harder than real life because they're broken.

 

Goddamned JDAMs.

[Maverick-X]

Yes P*Funk, indeed.

In my beginnings I was happy to have guided munitions as it was a very handy way to engage targets without exposing yourself to enemy AD. I still tend to use guided munitions in many missions as Iglas are a real pain in the ass ^^

 

But however this really bugs me, as I want to be able to use every weapon to its maximum potential, and iron bombs are fun. And with realism in mind, a loadout with 6 Mav's and 6 or more GBU 12's is very costly ^^

 

A question I asked before, although LASTE doesnt seem to function properly:

 

Where do I get wind data from? I know wind data is shown in the WP-Page, but as soon as you enter wind data to the LASTE page this readout is affected.

[MaverickF22]

Never heard of that before, does it really give you kind of accurate solution?

 

Hi Mav-x,

 

 

Yes, i've found that if you write only one layer of altitude to correct the wind with LASTE, it will actually correct for the wind very accurate and deliver your bomb pinpoint where you want it to go (regardless of CCRP's bugs, for CCIP work perfect), but ONLY if the wind doesn't change with altitudes..., maybe i forgot to mention that in the video or the earlier posts..., that if you write down in LASTE only one layer of altitude (because in real life, you should normally add at least 2 layers between which you will release the iron bombs, so that the computer will know how the trajectory evolves, as the wind will vary with altitude), you have to make sure that the wind has the same intensity and direction between the altitude from where you want to release the bomb (the only altitude to write down in LASTE) and the ground..., only then the LASTE will accurately correct for the wind, so it does work the way i showed in the video and also as the track files reveal, but it's completely unrealistic to fly a mission where the wind needs to have the same direction and intensity throughout all available altitudes in mission editor (at 0 meters, at 2000 and 8000m) and so you can never use dynamic weather if you want to use the LASTE correctly..., so..., either don't use wind on your missions or apply the above conditions when you want to use iron bombs!

 

So when ED has tried to model the CCRP's calculations in various situations (diving/climbing) and also the LASTE's wind correction function..., they made them calculate and correct something..., but not what it should!

 

I just hope, and all of us do..., that they will try to investigate these problems and fix them, before going to something else, otherwise we would feel like flying a handicapped attack aircraft, reliable only on guided munitions and CBU's, which will stay like that forever..., and that's not we want from DCS!

 

 

Good day!

Edited August 28, 2013 by MaverickF22

[MaverickF22]

And i'm still looking for that answer from Dynamo...!

 

I want to see his track in which he respects exactly what he has told within those pictures, that he posted on the first page of this thread, using 2 altitude layers at least, as he said, and drop 1 or 2 MK-82 bombs on a 15m/s (that's 29 knots, because LASTE asks for wind speed in knots and not m/s) wind..., use the CCRP method for release, and LASTE as mentioned, for wind correction!

 

Until he doesn't provide us a track with what he has told..., it was a waste of time for him in a try to prove what can't be done giving the actual conditions of a probably bugged CCRP and LASTE functions. I mean..., i'd love to see that it works, and that i was wrong..., but from my point of view, this is a bug and needs to be fixed!

 

I'm sorry if i have insulted anyone or gave the impression of a high level arrogance..., but i really want DCS to get better, because even less known simulators or none-licensed(BMS) ones are able to simulate a CCRP correctly!

Edited September 1, 2013 by MaverickF22

[allmhuran]

So I've just read all 14 pages of this thread and I still have no idea whether or not I should be punching away at the CDU in order to get accurate dumb bomb deliveries.

 

I second the call for an ED team member to provide some clarification. Alternatively, I could simply keep flying DCS Maverick Launch Platform...

[MaverickF22]

So I've just read all 14 pages of this thread and I still have no idea whether or not I should be punching away at the CDU in order to get accurate dumb bomb deliveries.

 

I second the call for an ED team member to provide some clarification. Alternatively, I could simply keep flying DCS Maverick Launch Platform...

 

Well, that's because ED has to fix both LASTE and CCRP in order to have the dumb bombs where they normally should be (and also that wild traveling MK-82AIR:P)!

 

If you want to fly the A-10C and be able to hit something and do some score..., don't load dumb (iron) bombs on your plane if you plan to drop them with CCRP mode, unless you want to use CCIP, in a no wind condition, or don't load iron bombs at all, if there is wind! Just stick to LGB's and Mavericks to do the job for now...!

 

So let's all wait patiently until ED will decide to take a look at these functions that aren't working correctly and then we should have the results, otherwise the A-10A's CCRP is more reliable (although it has it's problem too..., it always sends your bombs (every model) into the ground, like 40...50 feet before reaching the target) and always delivers the bombs with the same error (before the target) even when you climb or dive while releasing...!

[allmhuran]

Yeeesss... between ineffective jammers, predetermined air defense engagement ranges, the extremely low wing-pylon-efficiency of irons (sure, I could ripple six... but for the same two wing pylons I can carry six guaranteed maverick kills), and apparent ineffectiveness of the GAU (8 AP hits in one pass on a BMP for no kill... wat - and fuggedaboudit against MBTs) I don't see any reason to employ any tactic other than scan from 25 miles, mark for mavericks, launch at maximum range, RTB, rinse, repeat. Unfortunately this gets boring really quickly.

[MaverickF22]

Yeeesss... between ineffective jammers, predetermined air defense engagement ranges, the extremely low wing-pylon-efficiency of irons (sure, I could ripple six... but for the same two wing pylons I can carry six guaranteed maverick kills), and apparent ineffectiveness of the GAU (8 AP hits in one pass on a BMP for no kill... wat - and fuggedaboudit against MBTs) I don't see any reason to employ any tactic other than scan from 25 miles, mark for mavericks, launch at maximum range, RTB, rinse, repeat. Unfortunately this gets boring really quickly.

 

About the GAU-8, i personally haven't seen any deficiencies, except for the fact that in wind conditions, the LASTE screws the wind correction real badly for the gun also..., sending all bullets in another direction than where the pipper is, but that's the only problem so far..., otherwise i was able to easily kill many T-90 tanks with the GAU-8 with A-10C, by shooting the T-90's form around 0.5nm away with around 100 bullets for each..., and i was definitely sending a 100%healthy T-90 on fire just to that! The GAU-8 seems fine and everything else..., except for the CCRP, LASTE and MK-82 AIR bombs!;)

 

 

Good day!

[Flagrum]

About the GAU-8, i personally haven't seen any deficiencies, except for the fact that in wind conditions, the LASTE screws the wind correction real badly for the gun also..., sending all bullets in another direction than where the pipper is, but that's the only problem so far..., otherwise i was able to easily kill many T-90 tanks with the GAU-8 with A-10C, by shooting the T-90's form around 0.5nm away with around 100 bullets for each..., and i was definitely sending a 100%healthy T-90 on fire just to that! The GAU-8 seems fine and everything else..., except for the CCRP, LASTE and MK-82 AIR bombs!;)

 

 

Good day!

Regarding LASTE and wind, read this: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=112577 (especially Eddies answer in posting #5)

In short, LASTE wind correction _does_ work as intended(!), it seems. It just can't do magic.

[MaverickF22]

Regarding LASTE and wind, read this: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=112577 (especially Eddies answer in posting #5)

In short, LASTE wind correction _does_ work as intended(!), it seems. It just can't do magic.

 

Thanks for the link..., there are so many threads dealing almost the same subject, that you stick to the first one you find, without taking the time to see how many more threads talk about the same things, so thanks again for this one!

 

It seems a bit more clear now that the LASTE in itself isn't the problem (only for correcting wind) as i thought..., and the problem is related to the huge difference in wind speed and slightly in direction (about 10 degrees error from the real heading)! So the LASTE function, actually corrects the pipper's position on the ground according to the data feed by the IFFCC, data that isn't corresponding to the mission editor's one, apparently!

 

Yet i hope that the CCRP and MK-82AIR bomb will not be forgotten either, until they will be fixed!

 

 

Cheers, good day!

Edited September 9, 2013 by MaverickF22

[BackboneOne]

its all about wind direction. there is no need for manual wind correction if the wind has same (or slightly different) direction on all three layers but there IS a problem when there is CROSSWIND, in that case my bombs are missing and manual wind correction is not solving that problem a bit. if there is a crosswind (for example 160 \ 243 \ 41) forget about dumb bombs(((

[BackboneOne]

im tryin 2 drop it from 7k-8k on t-90s. if there is no wind or it blows from one direction 1 mk-82

kills 1 t-90, i got no problem with that.

 

what technique can i apply 2 deliver it with crosswind? please advise what document should i study, i can't find any specific topic about crosswind delivery.

 

four-seven-six's input on this subject will be most welcome

[Eddie]

The first thing would be to select your attack heading to deliver with a head or tail wind. That combined with a 45 DB or 45 HADB will maximise accuracy and minimise wind drift.

[BackboneOne]

wow! anything else? :smartass:

 

EDIT: when you gettin' attack heading from JTAC and when he advised using of mk-82, is this attack heading correct in crosswind situation? how usable his wind remarks are?

Edited September 10, 2013 by BackboneOne

[Eddie]

Well if there is a requirement to deliver the weapon on a heading that will give a high crosswind you need to select a delivery type that will minimise the impact of any wind.

 

That means high angle and low release altitude to minimise weapon time of fall.

 

Such things are a big weakness of an AI JTAC/FAC(A), they just can't interact with you as a human could/would, and they can't consider every possible parameter. A situation where high winds impact the accuracy of a given weapon is exactly the kind of situation where a pilot would advise the JTAC an alternative weapon would be better, and/or refuse to drop. Something you can't do with the AI.

 

The other thing to consider is the weapons you are carrying to start with. If you know that MK-82s are not suitable for the mission due to the target(s), threat environment, weather, etc, then select an alternative weapon type for the mission.

[BackboneOne]

very helpful, Eddie, thank you!

i wish one day i will pass through 476th weapons school and get all its knowledge. thats my blessed aim))

Edited September 12, 2013 by BackboneOne