Wind correcting Dumb Bomb Delivery

[Digital Aura]

final consensus??

[Donglr]

My question should have been: is wind drift correction fully modeled in the game and will we see changes to the dumb bomb accuracy when we properly input wind data now?

 

Eager to know about that as well.

Is there ANY wind correction by the IFFCC at all WITHOUT wind input from the pilot?

Is there IMPROVED wind correction if wind data is input?

 

Come on guys, who is willing to spend 2+ hours for a scientifically backed study? :joystick:

[SmokeyTheLung]

You probably wouldn't even need that long.

 

Try a steep high altitude dive in CCIP mode. Get the pipper on something and hit active pause. Now enter some really large values for the wind layers and see if the pipper moves

[Donglr]

You probably wouldn't even need that long.

 

Try a steep high altitude dive in CCIP mode. Get the pipper on something and hit active pause. Now enter some really large values for the wind layers and see if the pipper moves

 

That would probably answer my second question, but not if the IFFCC does anything without pilot input. That would need some more runs and averaging.

[Donglr]

You probably wouldn't even need that long.

 

Try a steep high altitude dive in CCIP mode. Get the pipper on something and hit active pause. Now enter some really large values for the wind layers and see if the pipper moves

 

Actually tried that just now. The pipper does move. But the movement is really small. I was at 5600ft and had to enter wind speeds of ~50 knots to make sure I can actually make out the difference.

[Evil.Bonsai]

Actually tried that just now. The pipper does move. But the movement is really small. I was at 5600ft and had to enter wind speeds of ~50 knots to make sure I can actually make out the difference.

 

5600 feet isn't very high. Try the same test from 10-15K feet. Will likely see a greater difference at lower wind speeds.

[Hekktor]

Guys, beware, afaik in mission briefing wind is given in meters hight and m/s speed, for the laste you need to convert it to feet hight (meters*3 roughly) and kts (m/s*2 roughly) speed.

[Donglr]

Guys, beware, afaik in mission briefing wind is given in meters hight and m/s speed, for the laste you need to convert it to feet hight (meters*3 roughly) and kts (m/s*2 roughly) speed.

 

In the mission briefing the units given are whatever the mission designer decides to write into his briefing :smartass:

 

But I agree, people usually use m/s as this is the unit used in the mission editor and also by ATC. The CDU needs feet and knots, true.

[MaverickF22]

Hello guys,

 

I've read and understood that the A-10 should have a wind correction function for a more precise hitting on the target..., but what about bombs that won't go in the right direction, but rather sideways on their travel towards an impact point which is different from the initiated (wanted) impact point, upon bomb release using the CCRP or even CCIP (for a very retarded bomb in particular) on a no wind condition, so with or without LASTE at your hand, still, the same thing will happen.

 

Also i want to state here that, being noticed or not by others, you will have the best precision (if you can call it best) only when you are straight and level (no vertical speed) while heading for your target and releasing in CCRP mode which seems to have an issue. If you are in a climb or in a dive, in both cases the CCRP will release the bomb in such a way that it will always fall further of it's target with an amount according to your climbing or diving pitch attitude angle, so you'll only have your bombs drop as close as possible when releasing from a leveled flight. Even so, in a leveled flight release, the bombs will always hit some 10-20m further of the target if launched from 10000 feet, or in other words, the CCRP function doesn't correctly calculate when to drop them so they will always drop, no matter the case, further beyond the wanted impact point.

 

The CCIP function otherwise, despite the fact that it should work almost the same as the CCRP function, except that it will only calculate your impact point and will not interact with your release trigger..., does send your bombs exactly in the place where you have pointed on the ground, nomatter if you climb or dive or fly leveled..., it will always have high and even precision, despite CCRP, and this doesn't seem normal. The only thing that CCRP should do for you, different than CCIP, si that it would release your ordnance with milliseconds precision exactly for this reason, to give you the best accuracy for the moment of release, yet here it does worse.

 

Even if, so far the CCIP seems not to lie about where your bombs will drop..., there might be some bug, which i'm afraid might affect all other bombs, be them with or without guidance..., which makes the bombs simply slide or travel in a different direction then the one they are initially pointing at, and this doesn't seem normal at all. It's like after stabilizing and even before stabilizing, as they oscillate around an alpha (AoA) or beta (sideslip) angle (here i'm talking about the usual bombs, not like MK-82 AIR bombs) after being released, they are "thrown" in a different direction then the initial heading, and this direction is always random for each release..., so it's like your bombs will have a circle of a given radius around your target, on which they are likely to fall, and not on the target as they should. This thing that i'm talking about can be most clearly seen after releasing MK-82 AIR bombs and watch as they are aligning with the vertical axis, and instead of going along (towards the ground) as there will be no more horizontal airspeed acting on it..., it will still travel in some random direction (always different) just like sliding, which i believe will appear since you release the bomb..., and it's not the same direction as the one on which you've released it, but you can't really see this in the first few moments. I might be wrong saying that this weird traveling direction seen for the MK-82 AIR bomb may also be affecting all other bombs in the sim..., but i guess they are all using the same laws of motion and this could be the reason why dropping any bomb in dumb mode will have it falling a bit left or right, forward or backward of the calculated point (if you were to always release on the same calculated point), although the difference would be small, about 5-10m radius of error if you drop a bomb from 4km high (so let's say we might not notice it), despite 500m error radius if talking about MK-82 AIR!

 

Here i've provided a video regarding all these aspects:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8s9PKLbNW8

 

I would've rather linked a track file and that would've also be a lot easier for me than making a video..., but the way that DCS records what you have done (saving it in a .trk file) has it's own issues, which i believe other people have talked about on forums or somewhere..., because the longer your recording will be, the more errors it will record as you have manoeuvred your plane and done different things, showing stuff that you haven't even done or that you've done in such a manner which is unrecognizable. I've tried a couple of times to watch some track files of a formation flight with the P-51 between me and a friend, as we did different things, and as we were initially rolling down the taxiway towards the runway for takeoff, the recording was showing a whole different story of what we did, and did so every time with every different track, so i don't know how other people manage to gather anything from a track file showing the EXACT things that they did, but i'm not going to use this feature again until ED will try to fix it and make it replicate exactly what you did when it was recording, because for now it only seems to have a mind of it's own.

Edited May 15, 2013 by MaverickF22

[Nealius]

Even if, so far the CCIP seems not to lie about where your bombs will drop...,

 

Mine does. 35* dive on a target, release when the "thing is on the thing" and my bombs consistently fall a considerable distance short and to the right of the target. This is in ~13kts wind.

[MaverickF22]

This is in ~13kts wind.

 

As i wrote, i've only done these tests on a no wind condition (0 wind intensity) and you could also see the accuracy i had, as well as my dive angle on using CCIP mode. The two great problems are the CCRP feature which releases at a wrong moment (badly calculates the impact point, thus the releasing moment) and the bombs which seem to go on another trajectory then the one they were launched on, as it could be seen that the MK-82 AIR bomb does!

 

I hope the devs will take a look at my video and tell me if i'm wrong somewhere, or if there is something they should fix in further updates, regarding these facts!

 

 

Cheers.

[Nealius]

Isn't CCIP supposed to automatically compensate for wind though? Flying the same mission with the same bombs with the same 13kts wind I was able to hit targets fairly easily in 1.2.3.

[MaverickF22]

Well, just read about what other guys have told about precision bombing using the CCIP function on a wind condition. They told something like the LASTE function is now implemented for CCIP and now works as it does for the CCRP mode as well.

Edited May 17, 2013 by MaverickF22

[Eddie]

:cry:

Edited May 16, 2013 by Eddie

[Ghanja]

:D

[MaverickF22]

Ok, so now the subject of precision bombing issues seems too saturated to pay any more attention for some people here and we moved to off topic stuff.

 

No reply from anyone else about this CCRP issue regarding the diving or climbing which affects the release moment? Also, no reply about that damn MK-82 AIR bomb which seems to go in another direction then the one it was launched on, sometimes even going on an opposite heading then the one it was released on..., all of these factors occurring at 0 wind velocity!

 

Maybe nobody reads this thread or understands what are these problems that i've found, therefore i should start another thread for answers...!

 

I hope there is someone capable to tell me what's wrong with this CCRP behaviour as well as for the MK-82 AIR bomb. Also for the MK-82 AIR bomb, i don't want answers like: "When the bomb is released and the chute is deploying it would swing and change direction due to oscillations created by the chute" or any idiot answer like that, because any oscillation which may appear in reality will have an asymptotically stable form, so the final trajectory (although with these initial oscillations) remains the same. So this thing with the MK-82 AIR should be a bug to go fall around like that.

 

 

Cheers,

Maverick!

Edited May 17, 2013 by MaverickF22

[MaverickF22]

Hi there ED Tester (Eddie),

 

If is there something wrong that i did, please tell me! I'd also like to hear from someone, about these things that won't seem right to me, and what should be done.

 

I don't want to waste anyone's time or nerves if there's something i might've done wrong or didn't do, in the CCRP's case..., and i also want to help ED solve these problems that some of us find, because after all everyone wants this simulator to be as good as it can (the best if possible), and that's the reason why i'm considering these problems which i find.

 

 

Any answers from an ED Tester would be highly appreciated.

[Ebs]

 

Here i've provided a video regarding all these aspects:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8s9PKLbNW8

 

I'm no weapons expert by any stretch. But I noticed a couple of 'tiny' problems with your video.

Dropping a MK-82AIR from 12,000 feet? a 75 (Seventy Five) degree dive angle in CCIP and releasing at about 10,000 feet? A 12 degree CLIMB above 10,000 while releasing bombs in CCRP?

 

...And it's the sims fault that you don't hit anything?

 

There's a TON of tutorial videos on Youtube and there's even the A-10A-34 floating around. At least get some of the basic concepts down first.

[Madone]

MaverickF22, 10000 feet is quite high and I feel that the CCRP release mode shows its limits at this altitude, I also don't understand the use of an MK82 AIR which is mostly released for low level delivery.

Personally I don't use dumb bombs above 8000 ft, I prefer to get 2 JDAMS and 2 dumb bombs for versatility.

Just so you know, the laser guided bombs have about 10m of precision, the gps are 30 m precise. I let you guess what's the precision of a dumb bomb... every single move at 10000 feet can kill your attack run.

 

Btw, the AIR version can be released as a slick bomb.

[PhoenixBvo]

Hi there ED Tester (Eddie),

 

If is there something wrong that i did, please tell me! I'd also like to hear from someone, about these things that won't seem right to me, and what should be done.

 

Read this thread: 476th vFG, 76th vFS "Battle Book". And I mean all of it. It should answer your question ;)

 

EDIT: The download mentioned in the first post can be found here: 76th vFS Battle Book.

Edited May 17, 2013 by PhoenixBvo

[WildBillKelsoe]

Read this thread: 476th vFG, 76th vFS "Battle Book". And I mean all of it. It should answer your question ;)

 

EDIT: The download mentioned in the first post can be found here: 76th vFS Battle Book.

 

as addition, look at their youtube channel 476thvFG. about 5 vids for correct procedure.

[MaverickF22]

Thank you for the help, i'll read it as soon as i can. I suppose it will tell me where i have gone wrong using the CCRP in a non-leveled (climb/dive) dumb bomb delivery. But i really wonder if it would also tell me why does the MK-82 AIR bomb have that wrong trajectory and constant translation/sliding speed in it's behaviour, after it had aligned with the vertical axis (where it should have 0 speed in horizontal plane), as shown in the video that i've posted.

 

Thanks again for the thread link, but i'd still want an answer about why does that bomb behave the way it does.

 

Cheers.

[Gideon]

The MK82 AIR is a 500 pound bomb modified with a BSU-49/B high drag tail assembly. The "ballute" air bag which deploys from the tail provides a high speed, low altitude delivery capability by quickly slowing the bomb and allowing the aircraft to escape the blast pattern.

 

You are dropping too high. It's not designed for dropping at high altitude.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Gideon

[Ebs]

Maverickf22, if you really think something dodgy is going on. Just post a track of you dropping the air at high alt and people will check it out.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Maverick, if you think you're supposed to be a dart with them 82 AIR's singly, you're mistaken. I normally reserve AIR's for concentration of trucks, or an bridge that is not defended. You use them like toilet paper. If you're not savvy with the ballute, you can always release them in slick.