Please help me choose a HOTAS

[Invisibull]

Hi All:

 

I've had a Saitek x52 pro for just a few months now and have never liked it. I find the flight stick too floppy, and the cable connecting the joystick to the throttle constantly loosens, killing power to the stick at the most inopportune times. The bottom line is that I'm building a new kickass rig and I'm looking for a worthy HOTAS to accompany it. Here are the current contenders along with some pros and cons I've gleaned from reading various forums and reviews:

 

1) Hotas Warthog - seems like a wonderful system though a little pricey and doesn't come with a rudder solution. Also, seems like an undetermined small percentage of them are suffering some kind of problem with the throttle. Firmware related?

 

2) Saitek X65f - novel approach with the force-sensing stick that most users seem to quickly get used to and enjoy. Also, it's more reasonably priced with no need to buy rudder pedals. I did notice that it lacks a 2-stage trigger, and was wondering if that was an issue at all. A final concern of mine is whether the connection between the throttle and stick has been improved from the shoddy x52 pro one.

 

3) Logitech G940 - From what I gather, this stick was initially pretty buggy, but firmware updates have addressed much of what was wrong. I'm also wondering if the Force feedback is really worthwhile in DCS: Warthog or not. The price, considering that rudder pedals are included, seems the most reasonable of the three.

 

OK, so what I'm asking is for people who currently own one of the 3 aforementioned systems to correct any misconceptions i might have above, and to tell me how happy/unhappy they are with their purchase. Given the chance, would you buy the same hotas again if you had the opportunity? What are the strengths and weaknesses of your hotas, specifically concerning how well it works with DCS: Warthog?

 

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Regards,

 

Bull

[StrongHarm]

I know this is off topic Invisibull, but would you try the X52 profile I have linked in my signature and see if you like it any better? I've put quite a lot of work into it and think it does the trick. I do agree with your assessment that it's poorly engineered.

[nomdeplume]

The lack of a two-stage trigger is actually the reason I didn't buy the X65F when it came out. If you're primarily concerned with flying the Warthog, then that's a bit of a bummer. You could work around it, so it's certainly not a dealbreaker, but it is a drawback. Even the x52 had a two-stage trigger so I don't know why they dropped it.

 

I replaced my x52 with the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog a while ago, and don't regret it. I never had any problems with the x52, but the TM HOTAS WH is definitely better built. The only real drawback of the TM WH is that it's very specific to the Warthog (obviously). For the sim that's actually fantastic, especially since it's automatically recognised and configured.

 

Long-term, it may be more difficult to adapt to other aircraft than a more generic stick. It only has one slider axis, and while it's great that the 'mini-stick' is actually two DirectX axes, it's very difficult to control accurately. Additionally, the way many of the switches work seems unusual to me; e.g. the 'boat switch' is actually presented as two DirectX buttons. When pushed forward or back, one of those buttons is 'held down'; when in the center position, both are released. This works perfectly fine in DCS, but it seems to me that other games would either need to be specifically coded to recognise that kind of setup, or you'd need to use TARGET to provide more 'normal' signalling to the game.

 

Also, there seems to be many places for dust to be able to enter behind switches, so I feel compelled to keep the throttle and stick covered when not in use. Not a major issue, but still annoying.

 

All said and done though, I'm completely confident that there is no better HOTAS for this particular simulation than the TM. I haven't had any problems with mine, but it's probably worthwhile buying it from a local retailer if you're able to. It's quite heavy and would be expensive to ship if you do need to make use of the warranty.

 

Also, a dedicated set of rudder pedals will enhance your setup, so don't think of that as a drawback, but more as an opportunity/excuse to get more stuff. :)

[Teej]

Long-term, it may be more difficult to adapt to other aircraft than a more generic stick. It only has one slider axis, and while it's great that the 'mini-stick' is actually two DirectX axes, it's very difficult to control accurately. Additionally, the way many of the switches work seems unusual to me; e.g. the 'boat switch' is actually presented as two DirectX buttons. When pushed forward or back, one of those buttons is 'held down'; when in the center position, both are released. This works perfectly fine in DCS, but it seems to me that other games would either need to be specifically coded to recognise that kind of setup, or you'd need to use TARGET to provide more 'normal' signalling to the game.

 

All the major systems need programming to work their best. It's been that way for 10 years...whether you talk TM, CH or Saitek.

 

It's kinda nice that they're making TARGET in 2 flavors....GUI and script. The GUI does everything that most people will ever want. The script opens up a lot more doors. In either version, the 'boat switch' isn't 2 directx buttons...there's BSF, BSM, BSB (boatswitch forward, middle, back) that you can program.

 

You can even make things conditional on one or more switch positions (in the script). As an example, for our VTB profile, I've got a switch set up as a sort of preflight "systems test" - pushing it checks that several of the switches are where we want them preflight and lights LEDs on the throttle accordingly (beta build of the next TARGET release...we're striving to help make sure it doesn't break anything).

 

I've also written a very nice Jagstang-inspired Falcon AF profile for it.

 

This stick is most certainly not "tied to" DCS or the A10.

[metalnwood]

I have tried the 940, in fact I bought it to see if I would be happy with it so i didnt have to outlay for the warthog when it came out.

 

I wouldn't like it for a10 because the buttons are too different from the A10. At least with something else, like the CH fighterstick or some other f16 replica you still have all the buttons on the stick.

 

I dont know the saitek but I also play il2 so I don't wat force sensing.

 

Then there is the warthog which replaced my CH fighter stick/throttle. Only because the throttle was only single engine.

 

This has shown me how nice having all the correct buttons in the right places are. The warthog beats the others by a margin.

 

Every HOTAS has a set of buttons whether they are copies of real sticks or not they are just a set of buttons that can be mapped in other games to do what ever you want. Don't let the fact that it is a replica put you off. It's still a stick with lots of buttons to do almost anything you want in any other game.

 

If you have the $$ I would go TM.

[ilikepie]

what he said ^

 

i have thrashed my hogstick in il2 and its got enough buttons for every thing i need and it can just bre mapped in game, without target. it would be good to try one out before laying the dosh down, so if you know anyone with 1, pay them a visit, or go to a shop to out what ever your thinking of

 

the hog firmware can only get better.

[Haukka81]

I sold my X52pro and now i have G940, its way better than saitek (for me)

 

-haukka81

[Conure]

Well, I can only speak for the x52 pro...It's been fine, though a little difficult to setup at times but that's my stupidity rather than bad design..It has a known hardware deadzone in the middle so if you're very specific about quality I would avoid the X52 pro.Though it's a decent enough stick I'll be swapping it for some CH gear in the next few months. Depends how serious you are about simming. The x52 is a great way to get into it but if you can afford it, go for the Warthog!

 

The logitechs are force feedback which, for me at least, means I avoid it. I havent had a force feedback stick that has worked correctly since the microsoft stick I had years ago....Also, the FFB is unrealistic. during my lessons in a Piper Warrior I've never felt anything close to the effects produced...I'd avoid FFB...Just my opinion! Check out some youtube reviews to see them in action!

 

Con

 

(Just read your first post so ignore my x52 stuff :-) )

[Invisibull]

I know this is off topic Invisibull, but would you try the X52 profile I have linked in my signature and see if you like it any better? I've put quite a lot of work into it and think it does the trick. I do agree with your assessment that it's poorly engineered.

 

 

SH:

 

Thanks for the offer, but my profile is the one thing i do like about the Saitek.

[Invisibull]

I sold my X52pro and now i have G940, its way better than saitek (for me)

 

-haukka81

 

Haukka:

 

I'd really like to hear exactly why you find the G940 to be way better. Thanks.

[rexehuk]

Mod your X52... It's a good stick!

 

To fix the floppy stick (Non-Intrusive) -

 

Increase the sensitivity (Voids Warranty) -

[RogueRunner]

I have both the X65 and Warthog. Love both!!

 

The Warthog cannot be beaten in DCS A10C since it talks to the game natively.

 

The two stage trigger problem on the X65 was solved by mapping a button on the throttle to PAC which worked great for me.

 

I'm actually thinking of hooking my X65 back up to me system and benching the Warthog till TM sorts out this throttle issue. I have not played with it in a month maybe. For me, it will be almost as expensive as buying a new one if I have to ship it back and from TM again so simply not an option.

[hassata]

Really love the WH, but I'd be nervous getting one now given some of the incidents. maybe wait until the latest firmware (20) is released?

 

Apologies for hijacking: Teej, what are you using the LEDs for, and can you program them without messing up Plug and Play.

 

Carry on.

[Invisibull]

RogueRunner:

 

Is the stick-throttle connecting cable sturdy on the x65?

[RogueRunner]

RogueRunner:

 

Is the stick-throttle connecting cable sturdy on the x65?

 

It's a PS2 type connection and mine is kinda stiff. You will have to give it quite a tug to dislodge it I guess but very possible of course still. As long as it doesn't move though I cannot see the connection coming loose by it self.

[Invisibull]

In reading over some more x65 reviews, I'm seeing 2 issues that I'd like to get x65 owners to comment on if possible. One is that the stick sometimes doesn't center correctly and so all kinds of deadzones have to be programmed to in order to compensate. Has this been sorted out yet, or is it still a potential problem. The other is that it's hard to reach the two hat switches on the top of the stick. I have pretty big hands, so will this be a problem for me?

 

Regards,

Bull

[Invisibull]

It's a PS2 type connection and mine is kinda stiff. You will have to give it quite a tug to dislodge it I guess but very possible of course still. As long as it doesn't move though I cannot see the connection coming loose by it self.

 

Sounds good, Rogue. That's a load off right there. Thanks.

[RogueRunner]

Mine did have a teeny little bit of centre (very very small) to the left on the x axis. Solved by a 3% deadzone. The problem I had with the X65 was that I had the habit of resting my palm on the joystick base in level flight. On the X65 this will generate a force an thus cause a roll to the right. I had to teach myself to either force myself not to do it or take my hands of the stick entirely in level flight.

 

That being said, the X65 is one fo the most precise joysticks I ever played with. With practise (and you will need practise when you start using it to reprogram your brain) you almost just think what you want done and it happens in game. Keeping constant pressure on the stick comes very naturally after a little practise and you will have precise control over the aircraft in no time flat.

 

The top hats do need you to move your hands on the stick, you cannot simply move your fingers. It did not bother me much though!

[Feuerfalke]

Mod your X52... It's a good stick!

 

To fix the floppy stick (Non-Intrusive) -

 

Increase the sensitivity (Voids Warranty) -

 

Agreed.

 

The X52 is a good bang for the money. With the precision/sensitivity-Mod described, it's even better.

 

Sure other sticks can do more, but they also cost a lot more!

 

 

And if you buy a new stick, you should definitely consider where you want to put it. The TM WH, for example, is nothing you can comfortably put on a desk. It's a replica of something at hip-height. And that's where you should put the throttle-unit.

 

CH-Products still one of the best HOTAS. Fighterstick with ProThrottle is a good combination to put on a desktop. While they are not really close replicas of anything in look and feel, they are very ergonomic (especially the throttle) and very easy to program. You can also increase functionality a lot, if you fiddle around with the advanced programming.

 

Th G940 seems to have improved. They're still not flawless, it seems. If you want a force-feedback, I guess there's no way around. Big plus is the included rudder-pedals. If you don't have them already, that is!

 

Well, my 2 cents.

 

I have/had the X52, the TM WH and the CH Fighterstick + ProThrottle. IMHO each has it's pros and cons. None is flawless. None is perfect. It depends a lot on the sims you fly and the style you fly them with.

[Steel Jaw]

Nobody mentions the poor old sloppy Cougar I see.

[RogueRunner]

Nobody mentions the poor old sloppy Cougar I see.

 

For what they still go for right now?!? Nah!!!! :music_whistling: If you can find one for less than $100 then maybe :thumbup:

[wickedfastball]

I have to give props to the CH Products line. While the Pro Throttle may not be A-10 specific, it is still quite good. You can map all of the A-10 throttle functions with buttons to spare. The Fighterstick, however, is nearly an exact match (save the two-stage trigger). The best thing is you can get a stick, throttle, and pedals for 2/3 the cost (maybe less) of the Warthog-specific rig.

 

The build quality of CH gear is top-notch. I'm still using the yoke and pedals I got almost 10 years ago. The stick and throttle are about to hit 4. Had a Saitek 45 before and it was ragged after a little over a year. The CH software, while not the spiffiest of user interfaces, is amazingly powerful and really pretty easy to use. And the support from CH is like no other company I've experienced. You can have a conversation with the folks that actually work there, not some farmed-out tech support.

 

I'm sold on CH gear. They don't give you a reason to look elsewhere.

[Invisibull]

Wicked - do you happen to know how the spring tension on the CH figherstick compares with the x52 pro?

[Vapour]

The tension on the CH Fighter Stick is slightly weaker than the X52 Pro, though the CH stick is waaay more precise. The trim wheels on the CH stick probably go half way towards justifying it's purchase (no ingame mapping required, it's all done outside the game). Really good with IL2.

[Bubb]

I own an X45, X52, X52Pro and as of last week, TM Warthog.

 

I've had a chance to mess with all the HOTAS systems out there (CH, TM, Saitek's X65F, Logitech ect`).

 

I've only had the TM Warthog for a week and I can safely say its the most accurate and best feeling system I've put my hands on. It's the first system I actually bothered to build a wooden clamp for center mounting and boy it feels great.

 

I love the TM Warthog and given the fact you are about to dish out a good amount of money on it, I'd go with it.

 

On a side note, I'll never touch anything from Saitek ever again. All 3 of my owned systems failed less than a year after I bought them. Surprisingly the X45 is the only one that actually still somewhat works.