EyePoint-Head Position

[Guest Cayenne]

When I edit the SnapViewDefault.lua file to correct the Pilots head position I can't see the HUD properly! The simulator's default head position has Your face up in UFC but You can see the HUD perfectly. The back 3/4 of the l & r consoles are 160° behind You when they are really off your thighs and hips this is wrong.

 

SnapViewsDefault.lua

 

------This is default face in the HUD-------

 

Snap[11][13] = {} -- Default cockpit view

Snap[11][13]["y_trans"] = -0.041336805555555564

Snap[11][13]["x_trans"] = 0.36

Snap[11][13]["hAngle"] = 0

Snap[11][13]["viewAngle"] = 95.0

Snap[11][13]["vAngle"] = -23 <----oops EDIT 3/5/11

Snap[11][13]["rollAngle"] = 0

Snap[11][13]["z_trans"] = 0

 

------This is My edit, Head where it belongs-------

 

Snap[11][13] = {} -- Default cockpit view

Snap[11][13]["y_trans"] = 0.01

Snap[11][13]["x_trans"] = 0.05

Snap[11][13]["hAngle"] = 0

Snap[11][13]["viewAngle"] = 95.0

Snap[11][13]["vAngle"] = 0

Snap[11][13]["rollAngle"] = 0

Snap[11][13]["z_trans"] = 0

 

I have looked at many real world photos, and the pilots in the sim and the proper head position/eyepoint is: approx. 2" below the headrest appendages that stick out on the sides (not sure what they are called), and appox. 12" in front of the headrest. In just about any chair/seat Your eyeballs are above Your a$$.

 

I was sure it would be corrected in Beta, or the RC phase, or at least Ver. 1, and here it is ver.1.1.0.5 and I still can't see the HUD correctly. Is there something I can do to fix it?

 

The HUD should accommodate the Pilot.

The Pilot should NOT accommodate the HUD.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Cayenne

[effte]

The HUD is specified in terms of the angles the symbology covers. No way around it. It is x mils wide by y mils high, and that's it.

 

The pilots nominal eye position is also very carefully specified in all modern aircraft designs. Given the above, and the known size of the HUD combiner, there's also only really one position in which the HUD symbology will all be visible and fill the combiner.

 

ED obviously have access to these specifications.

 

I think these things are about as negotiable and open to interpretation as the size of the vertical stabilizers.

[Guest Cayenne]

What is the point of a heads up display if you can't see the FPM, altitude, airspeed, waypoint info, weapon info, tad, spi, heading tape, etc. etc. while You sit normally in Your seat? A human male adult can't sit and have their eyes where this sim puts them by default. You can't lower the seat and compress your spine enough, and there is no room for your knees in the instrument panel! and leaning forward 2 feet with Your face over the flight stick ain't how its done. Your eyes are not 10" from the apu fire ext. handle and they are not below the top of the hud. Google some images....

[Guest Cayenne]

Please notice that My eyepoint coordinates are closer to zero than the defaults, If You make it...

X = 0 too far back

Y = 0 too tall

Z = 0 centerline of ship

Than You would be too tall and there would be no room for the helmet. My point being is that's where it was designed to be in the first place, instead they moved it to where the HUD was shining..

 

Check these dudes out...

[effte]

Google some images....

 

I did, and came to entirely different conclusions than you did.

 

If your eyes are not below the top of the HUD, you're going to have some serious problems with some of the symbology on the HUD.

 

How to interpret the available imagery seems to leave some room for opinion. That's OK. I have the greatest respect for the fact that opinions can differ. I have the right to my opinion, and if someone disagrees then he or she has the right to be wrong. :music_whistling:

 

While it does feel as if you are squashed up against the dash, I don't have a problem with it while flying.

 

I can imagine that the HUD design eye point is where your head ends up when you hunch up a bit, which is natural when attacking. That would mean less than optimal HUD usage when leaning back and relaxing, which is quite OK as you'll be looking outside and using other instruments then.

 

I've put longitudinal head position on a slider to give me the option, but find I almost never use it in flight.

 

(BTW, I hate to rain on your parade, but careful image analysis reveals that the reference pictures you posted are with approximately 94% certainty not, in fact, real pictures but rather artist's impressions/screenshots from an advanced video game)

 

Edit:

Edited March 3, 2011 by effte
Too awesome pics not to include. :)

[Guest Cayenne]

So effte, exactly where is the Eyebox and DEP located in the A-10?....anybody?......anybody???

 

I cannot relate to Your defense of the default head position its not realistic for a hyper realistic simulator, so please if You don't mind I am trying to get tech support from the developers of this tittle! Thats why I posted here.

[effte]

So effte, exactly where is the Eyebox and DEP located in the A-10?....anybody?......anybody???

 

Assuming that the dimensions of the HUD are true-to-life, and assuming that the HUD symbology is sized according to specifications - which are quite reasonable assumptions, considering the access ED obviously have to the docs - the design eye point for HUD use is just about right where it is in the sim right now. For that, the proof is in the pudding and we can all see it.

 

We should set up an object of a known size at a known distance and compare the size of said object to the HUD size of the depressible pipper. Then we can assess the size of the HUD symbology, as we know the mil diameter of the pipper.

 

What is an "eyebox"?

 

I cannot relate to Your defense of the default head position its not realistic for a hyper realistic simulator,

 

You don't think it is realistic. You're fully entitled to thinking so, and to try to convince others. Convince me it's wrong and I will not hesitate to change my mind.

 

so please if You don't mind I am trying to get tech support from the developers of this tittle! Thats why I posted here.

 

I don't mind at all, do go ahead! A scientific/technical discussion where you use your references and arguments to show that those of us who think it is right are in error will surely help your case. I'm happy to help! :thumbup:

[Guest Cayenne]

Do You use a head tracker?

 

Head tracker or not

Try this: look straight down in the sim, that's where Your butt cheeks are and if You notice You are sitting on the front edge of the seat where there is no room for Your knees to do this, its physically impossible! Now Vertically speaking Your spine is crushed so Your eyeballs are below the top of the HUD frame (sitting still on runway). While You are looking STRAIGHT down notice where Your ass should be its clearly visible to anyone.

 

You don't have to be an engineer, or a rocket scientist, or a flight simmer to realize where Your head should be just ask a child looking at an A-10 pilot sitting in His a/c to point to where the pilots head is, I bet You a dollar they don't point to an area 10" above the flight stick...

 

An eyebox is a Head Motion Box

[Guest Cayenne]

effte, what part of this are You in denial about?--------->"proper head position/eyepoint is: approx. 2" below the headrest appendages that stick out on the sides (not sure what they are called), and appox. 12" in front of the headrest"<------I will try to explain it to You. I didn't make this up this is a real world observation NOT my oppion

 

Here is another one You can choose not to believe: turn all the way around do You always sit 2 or 3 feet in front of your seat?

 

Have You even tried the awesome view out of the Hog with the proper settings and notice how much easier it is to see the avionics and realized " OH! Hey, Yea this does look a lot better and more accurate WOW! freakin sweat"? No big deal you can always switch it back to "midget mode" where the HUD is always magically visible.....

Edited March 3, 2011 by Cayenne

[effte]

Allright. So we have

 

1) Two pictures of A-10s firing, with pilots in the cockpit, showing a head position similar to that in the simulator.

 

2) Picture of green-clad knees, showing... well... it's an A model?

 

3) Picture of a civilian in a stupid hat in the cockpit showing a head position which does not agree with what we see in the simulator.

 

4) A lot of statements which have been or can rather easily be contested.

 

While the references and arguments are not going your way, it was a very smart move to accuse me of being in denial. I mean, with that thrown at me, what can I do but bow down to your supreme wit and knowledge?

 

I do have a plausible explanation for what we're seeing, but now you're not hearing it... Neener neener! Well, to be honest, most of it has already been pretty well alluded to above.

 

I think I'm done here for now. Buh-bye! :bye_2:

[PlainSight]

I don't know what ED did, but HUD doesn't act like it did in BS. It's always the same size, relative to it's boundaries of HUD glass, so if you set your viewpoint further away, it will get chopped away, because the physical HUD frame becomes smaller. It's not binded to the glass, but the text just floats in the middle of the screen, separated from the HUD surface. BS didn't have this issue

 

And the only point you see whole text is the default viewpoint.

 

YOU have to position right to capture the text in the HUD glass.

[RogueRunner]

Correction, zooming in about with TIR will not resize the hud fonts and can lead to the problems discussed here. Zooming in with the keyboard will zoom and unzoom the ext also.

[MackTheKnight]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet as I've only skimmed the thread, and perhaps you've already tried it but...

 

Have you tried using the seat height adjustment on the left hand side of the pit? I find the HUD awkward in that I can't see the heading tape until I put the seat up a tiny bit higher and then everything looks perfect....

 

-Mack

[Guest Cayenne]

@Rouge, Zoom, and moving around in a 3 dimensional space(virtual) with TIR is two completely different things. Zoom only enlarges or reduces a given image

Edited March 5, 2011 by Cayenne

[Guest Cayenne]

@Mack, Yes I have and with the correct Head position while flying I can just barely see the TVV even with the seat lowered all the way, bear in mind My virtual head position is on the short pilot side, most pilots eyes are even with the headrest appendages. (what the hell are those things?)

[effte]

Fairly certain they are ram air probes, essentially pitot tubes, used as input for controlling the sequencing of the ejection.

[Guest Cayenne]

Well, If You are open minded, and a little adventurous I highly recommend trying this to My fellow flight simmers especially if You like to chase realism. The view/perspective is really nice! I had a whole new appreciation for the Sim after I did this! This edit and TIR has to be seen, it is that impressive (it was to Me). You will notice though that The HUD is not very visible, This may be true to real life I just don't know and can't get a straight answer anywhere. But leaning over with TIR brings the HUD into full view and that realism during gun battle is unparalleled in any Sim. -true virtual reality?- Try it, Fly it, I think You will realize that Your head belongs near the HEADrest.

 

DISCLAIMER per DCS/ED only edit with notepad++ DO NOT! edit with windows notepad and You must switch it back for ANY tech support issues You may have. Back up the original!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If You try it, could You please post back with Your observations?

[galagamo]

Hmm?

I just tried your setting and it does seem like that's how it should be.

I thought I heard somewhere that A-10 pilots cant just turn there heads and see the turbines because of the seat, well with the default setting you can.

You definitly got me wondering.

The settings you posted would be perfect if the HUD werent off kilter

[slimakwielki]

My 0.03$:

1. FOV might zooming out after unpausing game at the begining - HUD fonts will be unreadable (wrritten might, as since beta 1 I'm using custom locked view and snapview, dont know wheter zooming out has been fixed in Final Release or 106 patch)

2. Default head view is not the best, might need fine tuning as per above files depending on TIR usage, etc.

3. Even with 83-90 degrees locked FOV which makes HUD fonts clearly visible I don't think its the intrument which you constantly look onto and refer to. I found HUD usage basically during attack runs, or just to check what SPI is active (left bottom line) if I forget what I was switching to lately.

4. Using HUD during aiming, or while very low AGL flights refering to TVV indications, etc requires a bit moving TIR/head towards HUD panel (no zooming on TIR, longit. axe movement assigned) which what I've seen on few A-10s clips is what pilots do.

[Guest Cayenne]

Well, thank You Gents!

 

Galagamo, I have TIR so turning around looking backwards is creepy real and those big GE turbines are blocking your view. You can mimic this by leaning a little with Lshift+Lctrl+ num 4 or 6. The pilots do lean sideways a little and they have 2 eyes We only have one single 2D eyepoint like a cyclops. lol You can easily move to the default eyepoint Lshift+Lctrl+ num / , *, 2, 8 and make it a snap view.

 

slim, Yes I am getting used to that -line 4-(can't get use to the default eyepoint!). I have triple monitors and My FOV is ...I forget...around220? reading HUD is no prob except for max. zoom out.

 

Again thank you, I thought I was going crazy!

[power5]

I do not have TIR yet, but I will try your settings when I get to that point.

I would say that your photos posted in the early part of the thread showing the pilot looking over the hud is while on the tarmac. The plane is not in this attitude when in flight. It points down for easier take off and taxi view. In flight the wings are level not pointed down on the leading edge. So, I would say that eye level is just below the top of the hud in flight.

 

I have always thought the view was too close in the beginning as well. And looking down should not be the top of the stick.

[Guest Cayenne]

Power5, I agree but I have to use a controlled reference point, hard to do with an aircraft in flight. All I can go off of for reference is eyepoint and horizon. Hope You like it and it can be easily undone..Let Me know what You think, Thanks.

[Guest Cayenne]

Kinda relavant -----> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1131307&posted=1#post1131307

[DarkStar]

Having tried your custom view with TrackIR, I must say I agree with you. I thought it was strange to have my head 90 degrees straight over the stick aswell, and your view feels more natural. However, looking at the pics of pilots in attack position, it looks like even the pilots need to move forward to see the entire HUD, just like we have to with your custom view. Nice work, really made a better experience for me (with TrackIR).

[effte]

However, looking at the pics of pilots in attack position, it looks like even the pilots need to move forward to see the entire HUD

 

4. Using HUD during aiming, or while very low AGL flights refering to TVV indications, etc requires a bit moving TIR/head towards HUD panel (no zooming on TIR, longit. axe movement assigned) which what I've seen on few A-10s clips is what pilots do.

 

:thumbup:

 

That's the point I was getting at, before I got fed up with the thread.

 

I don't think you are supposed to use the HUD as primary reference during normal flight. It is primarily a gunsight, even if it has a lot of bells and whistles. The dash one even explicitly states not to use the HUD speed readout as primary speed reference during takeoff.

 

ED had to choose. Either a default view position enabling use of the HUD, or a more relaxed posture where you won't be able to see all of the HUD. Which would create the most upset posts and claims for money back in this forum? I think they chose wisely. Perhaps an Il-2 solution, with two head positions, could be the thing.

 

Whether the eye point as used for the HUD is correct or not I do not know, but I outlined how to test it above. Still haven't seen it done. Volunteers?