EyePoint-Head Position

[Rider1]

OK, here are some observations for discussion. Boot up FC2 and hop into the A10A (or any plane really). Look at your default head position. Look left, right and down. See the headrest? Your virtual pilot is sitting with his head 8 to 10 inches forward. And notice how the view stops. Your head is moving and having the correct range of motion. You have blind spots behind your headrest. You look down and see your virtual pilots legs. The HUD is completely clear and readable.

 

Now, sit in the A10C with the default cockpit view. Everything looks pretty good. Now look left right and down. With my TIR settings I can look down at my seat, and keep my view moving and I am now looking at where my ass should be. Look left and I see the headrest. Keep turning and I now can see 180 behind me. The whole back of the seat and seat pan is visible. Keep turning and I can now see 270 degrees to the left.

 

Use the */ keys and zoom in. Looks good. Now zoom out and look behind you. Your view is not zooming, the plane is expanding. Fully zoomed out I have 360 panoramic view of the battlefield.

 

Look where your eyes are in the default cockpit. They really are just about in the right spot for a human pilot. No dispute there. Its just that the view system has no stops and your virtual pilot has no body mass to give the illusion of actually sitting in the seat.

 

For whatever reason, technical or otherwise, ED did not put in any FOV limits. Right now, my FOV is only limited by the fact my that my TIR cannot see my reflectors anymore.

 

I have edited the view files and have a another TIR profile with some restrictions, and it works really well, however the HUD is messed up, and more importantly I don't want to be the one guy on the server that has a realistic view, while the enemy A10C player has a full 360 view of me maneuvering for a guns shot on his 6. :)

 

I don't understand how we can have concerns about the oxygen meter is spinning on start up, and all of the other small technical details and procedures for the sake of "realism", however, no-one has ever brought up the fact that you can spin your virtual head 360 degrees on any axis, and that your are just a fully articulated camera, suspended above the edge of the seat in an empty plane.

 

Rider

Edited March 7, 2011 by Rider1

[DarkStar]

 

I don't think you are supposed to use the HUD as primary reference during normal flight. It is primarily a gunsight, even if it has a lot of bells and whistles. The dash one even explicitly states not to use the HUD speed readout as primary speed reference during takeoff.

 

ED had to choose. Either a default view position enabling use of the HUD, or a more relaxed posture where you won't be able to see all of the HUD. Which would create the most upset posts and claims for money back in this forum? I think they chose wisely. Perhaps an Il-2 solution, with two head positions, could be the thing.

 

Whether the eye point as used for the HUD is correct or not I do not know, but I outlined how to test it above. Still haven't seen it done. Volunteers?

 

Good post, I just wish we could have some sort of aknowledgement from ED or testers, confirming this choice :) Would make me feel a whole lot better!

[bumfire]

I will admit the HUD can be a PITA at times with the default view, I have to constantly redo the height of the seat during flight to see things, most of the time I cant see everything on the HUD and it gets annoying having to continually readjust. I have no idea if its the correct view or not, but if it isnt then all this time with beta and then open beta has been wasted.

 

I wish they had it like in blackshark, as that HUD didnt cause me so many problems.

[PlainSight]

your are just a fully articulated camera, suspended above the edge of the seat in an empty plane.

 

Rider

 

Yeah, maybe we're flying DARPAs UAV edition of an A10 :megalol:

 

Anyhoo, here are my current view settings, if anyone wants to try. I have my zoom setting mapped on a hat, i cannot use TIR alone. Important for gun runs.

 

Snap[11][13] = {} -- Default cockpit view
Snap[11][13]["y_trans"] = -0.01
Snap[11][13]["x_trans"] = 0.27
Snap[11][13]["hAngle"] = 0
Snap[11][13]["viewAngle"] = 90
Snap[11][13]["vAngle"] = -15
Snap[11][13]["rollAngle"] = 0
Snap[11][13]["z_trans"] = 0

 

-0.01 brings camera little bit higher, so the STPT is visible by default.

0.27 on the X brings your head back, but the side of the hud is still visible. Source of all issues.

90 degrees FOV is standard in all FPS, so i use that. Nice allround setting. But this is just default. When you zoom in and out, your FOV changes.

Edited March 8, 2011 by PlainSight

[Guest Cayenne]

FYI...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockpit

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Eye_Position

 

www.davi.ws/avionics/TheAvionicsHandbook_Cap_4.pdf <----Check out section 4.2.2.2

 

 

 

Thanks for the positive contribution to this conversation, It is a pleasure having a discussion with mature people who conduct themselves professionally !!!

[Guest Cayenne]

Who wan'ts a FREE box ver. of Black Shark??? <--I don't care to learn a Russian chopper

 

I will mail it to You postaged paid !!

 

If You can provide a legit (with sources) side view image of the A-10 cockpit with the eyebox location superimposed on it..and the timer starts...NOW

[macd1102]

take a look at the cover of ground threat guide look at where the pilot is in comparison to the hud and the instruments, i tried your setting nice job but to me not realistic, view to far back

[PlainSight]

take a look at the cover of ground threat guide look at where the pilot is in comparison to the hud and the instruments, i tried your setting nice job but to me not realistic, view to far back

 

Use the zoom button, or set fov to 80. It's set there, so i can use the radios more comfortable.

[Guest Cayenne]

macd1102, Do You know what Your FOV is set at? multi or single monitor and what resolution You running? This setting only moves Your head back about 1.5'-2'. Just curious, Thanks

[Guest Cayenne]

PlainSight, Do you find that over a 1/3 of the bottom of the HUD graphics are behind the UFC with those settings?

[Temp]

Tried these settings and you are right it's much more "realistic" (seems to me!) in terms of the pilot head but the HUD becomes pretty redundant :( I think I'll have to try and find a balance between the two, I'm quite reliant on the HUD.

[PlainSight]

PlainSight, Do you find that over a 1/3 of the bottom of the HUD graphics are behind the UFC with those settings?

 

Bottom is good, STPT is just visible, which is the lowest mark, but you can always adjust your seat height. Only the top hides behind the glass frame so when doing ccrp, you have to duck to see the countdown, if you need to. To me, it's a good compromise between seat position and visible hud.

[GregP]

I tried Cayenne's settings and I too agree, they feel much more realistic than the defaults. I would, however, shift the view upward enough so that the top of the CDU is visible -- this reveals a lot more of the bottom of the HUD and doesn't seem to adversely affect anything else.

 

I completely agree that the eye viewpoint would more intuitively be placed nearer the seat back, rather than the front edge, and doing so makes a tremendous difference as you pan around the cockpit -- the 'fisheye lens' effect is significantly reduced, and the visibility of the side panels seems much more realistic; I've always been frustrated at my inability to read the side panels right-side up -- they always appears almost upside down since with the default viewpoint, you're really looking REARWARD to see the bottom 60% of the side panels.

 

But, as everyone has noted, the HUD gets messed up and is only minimally visible when you move the viewpoint rearward. There are a bunch of LUA files that control HUD format here:

 

C:\[game]\Scripts\Aircrafts\A-10C\Input\HUD\

 

And I tried playing with a bunch of different parameters in (I think) HUD_definitions.lua, but couldn't get it working correctly. I was able to drop the font size, but have yet to find a way to compress the HUD symbology to fit into the smaller area of the new viewpoint's HUD. But I would guess that our answer lies somewhere in that folder.

[Guest Cayenne]

OK GregP looks like We are getting somewhere! It would be nice If ED would just tell us. I am very comfortable with it now as-is. I have My TIR fine tuned and all I have to do is lean left, or right, raise up, squish down just a tiny bit and I can see what I need. Or do the realistic lean-in for targeting and engagement. I wouldn't want to change it if its supposed to be like that, the people Who know the answer just ain't talkin.

 

I believe the fisheye effect (drives Me nuts) can be remedied on any monitor set-up with a good combo of FOV and zoom setting its caused from excessive zooming to compensate for poor FOV i.e. when Your eyepoint is too close to the instrument panel and You wan't to see something a little more important than the fire ext. handles...Thanks

[celticcoho]

Doctors, For Years have been trying to Replacate the Human EYE...No Go So far!!! So FOV and Zoom, Is at best an Individual Want.. If it works for you, Do it..:thumbup:

[GregP]

Right -- there's no doubt that this is a tough design problem, and we can be fairly certain that ED knew what they were doing when they designed it as is, and had good reasons for doing so.

 

Nonetheless, it does indeed seem that having the eye viewpoint further back not only feels more natural, but leads to less fisheye effect. Seems worthwhile, therefore, to see if we can get all the HUD info to compress inside the new visible HUD area.

[Snoopy]

Good thing real world our pilots can adjust the seat up or down so they don't have to worry about this :D

[GGTharos]

... the fact that they cannot model your eyeballs moving independently of your head? The only thing you do by restricting the 'head rotation' is restricting yourself mostly unrealistically. ;)

 

For whatever reason, technical or otherwise, ED did not put in any FOV limits. Right now, my FOV is only limited by the fact my that my TIR cannot see my reflectors anymore.

[GGTharos]

That's right, the HUD size is what it is - if you lean back all the way in the real aircraft you wont be able to see the entire HUD, either.

 

 

OK GregP looks like We are getting somewhere! It would be nice If ED would just tell us. I am very comfortable with it now as-is. I have My TIR fine tuned and all I have to do is lean left, or right, raise up, squish down just a tiny bit and I can see what I need. Or do the realistic lean-in for targeting and engagement. I wouldn't want to change it if its supposed to be like that, the people Who know the answer just ain't talkin.

[Guest Cayenne]

Perspective, and proportions.....

[Rider1]

"the fact that they cannot model your eyeballs moving independently of your head? The only thing you do by restricting the 'head rotation' is restricting yourself mostly unrealistically."

 

Is the human head able to spin continuously in a 360 degree radius on all axises? Last I checked, the bone and skin in my neck prevent that sort of thing :) Use the numpad view buttons.. See what I am saying? Not sure how much more unrealistic this can be.

[aaron886]

"the fact that they cannot model your eyeballs moving independently of your head? The only thing you do by restricting the 'head rotation' is restricting yourself mostly unrealistically."

 

Is the human head able to spin continuously in a 360 degree radius on all axises? Last I checked, the bone and skin in my neck prevent that sort of thing :) Use the numpad view buttons.. See what I am saying? Not sure how much more unrealistic this can be.

 

You have to compensate virtually for not being able to have the combination of head movement and eye movement. I believe it's quite possible to see directly behind the aircraft in the real A-10, although you can't point your head directly rearward.

[Rider1]

I totally agree with you that we will always need to take some liberties compensate for the fact we are sitting in front of a computer screen, and not in a real jet.. However the only point I am trying to make is, we should not be able to spin our virtual heads around like a top, and we should not be able to see the seat back and seat pan...

 

The only two things I was ever hoping to be fixed all through the betas and release was the gun sound and view system. :) So I guess it must be my personal pet peeve, an not an issue for the majority ..

[Mugenjin]

I guess that the majority doesnt't spend as much time looking at the back of the seat or seat pan :P

[DarkStar]

That's right, the HUD size is what it is - if you lean back all the way in the real aircraft you wont be able to see the entire HUD, either.

 

Awesome, thanks for the clarification!