Suddenly having a bad time getting FAC/AFAC units to respond on radio

[Bahger]

I've put JTACs in missions very successfully many times before. This time it absolutely refuses to work. I'm pretty sure I've got the waypoint logic right for FAC/AFAC missions (I always use FAC Assign Target Group). However, regardless of which unit I choose (I've tried Hog AFACs, ground FACs, Predators) although they show up in the comms menu and I can therefore make the outgoing call, they never, ever respond, not even with "No tasking available" ...just complete silence.

 

I'm totally baffled by this. I've tried flying my own jet at higher altitudes to counter any LOS radio reception problems, and/or getting closer to the FAC/targets. I've tried using different targets. No dice. I hear the FAC checking in, so there is no problem receiving transmissions from the unit but he won't respond to my check-in. I have also tried different, FM-only frequencies (I want to keep AM for package comms). This is maddening. What can I be missing??

[jeffyd123]

wish I could help you bahger... I spent my entire sunday trying to get triggers to fire in my newest "bun in the oven" to no avail. the ME is .... well... besides annoying at times... its interesting. LOL

[Bahger]

Let me put it more simply:

 

Under what circumstances willl a FAC unit that shows up in the radio menu where it should be, and contacted on the right frequency/modulation, not respond to check-in calls?

[Nate--IRL--]

Perhaps a short track of the behaviour would help us figure it out. It does sound odd.

 

Nate

[Bahger]

You're on. I will post a track if a test mission I made with an orbiting player a/c and two JTACs tasked on separate targets. Neither responds to my check-in, ever. I'm quite an experienced mission designer, so I'm baffled.

[Damage]

I'm a not mission designing expert but I have also had this problem sometimes. Sometimes I have no problem communicating with AFAC/JTAC and sometimes I can't figure out why I can't get a reply from them even after double checking and triple checking the radio settings. The problem more often occurs when trying to contact an airborne unit using the VHF AM radio.

 

Some things to check...

1. insure the intercom panel rotary dial is set back to VHF after using Intercom to communicate with ground crew. This definitely helps.

2. cycle the radios (AM, UHF, FM) then switch back to the one you need

3. if the mission allows - set the JTAC/AFAC unit to invincible so it doesn't get shot up to the point where he can't communicate.

4. does this happen more when using TARS vs. not using TARS?

[Bahger]

You may be onto something there, Damage, thank you for taking the trouble to think about this and reply. The default switch state of the player's a/c often varies in small but important ways and this may indeed be the culprit.

 

- I rarely use ground crew but will check position of the Intercom Panel rotary and confirm set to VHF.

 

- How do you suggest cycling the radios? Do you mean just cycling through the 3 different mic transmit buttons?

 

- I can confirm that the FAC units are not getting hit.

 

- I have not tested the mission with TARS, only in singleplayer and in a closed LAN MP server. After getting TARS (what a wonderful realism enhancer) I moved my non-TARS mic tk buttons to the equivalent shifted functions on my HOTAS, freeing up the corresponding unshifted functions for TARS mic tk. I thought about TARS while puzzling over this but see no reason why it would affect JTAC comms; I appear able to transmit to JTAC (i.e. the radio menu functions are present and correct) but either JTAC is not receiving or I cannot receive.

 

Odd though it seems, it appears to me that JTAC basically works in SP missions but in MP it's a bit borked. However, as I said, I tested this .miz in the SP exe.

 

Stop Press: Oddly, I have never had to switch the Intercom Panel rotary to FM to monitor and transmit to/from FAC units on FM frequencies before; do you think this might be the issue? it's odd that every different kind of FAC unit/target combo failed to respond but all were on FM...

Edited May 24, 2011 by Bahger

[Bahger]

I do not understand the Intercom Panel. Is the radio selected by the rotary the one at 12 0-clock? And what difference do the push-pull buttons make? I tried every possible combination this evening and at no point have I been able to receive on FM. Vexing.

[Damage]

- How do you suggest cycling the radios? Do you mean just cycling through the 3 different mic transmit buttons? Its just a suggestion to check if you are having trouble with one particular radio. I usually use AM channels for JTAC so if I'm having trouble getting a reply on AM I will switch to FM or UHF to see if I can get a response from another aircraft or ground unit. If I'm having trouble on AM I'll also try to contact a local ATC to see if I can get a response on the AM channel. All this just try's to help narrow down the problem and if I'm having a global problem or a more specific one.

 

 

-I thought about TARS while puzzling over this but see no reason why it would affect JTAC comms; I thought about this too and can see no logical reason except that its one software program working with another so it might be worth further testing.

 

Stop Press: Oddly, I have never had to switch the Intercom Panel rotary to FM to monitor and transmit to/from FAC units on FM frequencies before; do you think this might be the issue? it's odd that every different kind of FAC unit/target combo failed to respond but all were on FM. If you don't turn the dial to communicate with the ground crew and just leave it in the default position then you shouldn't need to mess with it to communicate on either VHF channel. I have an old habit of turning the rotary dial to turn on the intercom to communicate with the ground crew. In the SIM, if you don't turn the dial back to VHF I know it will interfere with the ability to communicate on the VHF channels. I also know that it would be easier to use a keyboard shortcut "\" (backslash) that allows comms with the ground crew but I just like pushing buttons and flippin switches (just ask my wife ;)) I don't think the issue lies only with FM because I usually use AM for AFAC and have the same intermittent issues with failure to receive. In the same missions where I've had a problem contacting a OH-58 Kiowa AFAC, I have been able to successfully communicate with a ground based JTAC on FM.

[Damage]

Are you assigning the unit to perform FAC in the advanced (waypoint actions) in addition to having AFAC as the group "Task". Its a long shot but I'm just wondering if somehow doing both might cancel one another out?

[Cibit]

Is it just the predator you have trouble with. Try with predator cp. Also the annoying preset 124 in the units radio sometimes reverts to default if you don't uncheck the box. Try your mission with default 124 to eliminate this from your bug hunt

Cheers mate

[Bahger]

I may have found a solution, although I still have to test it in my mission.

 

It appears that JTAC will not work in MP unless the JTAC unit's frequency/modulation is entered as the first available value in the Advanced command menu for every waypoint where the JTAC might be called on to transmit the 9-liner/responses.In a test mission I made last night, any JTAC without the frequency/modulation command in first position (under the immovable flight mission line, that is) entered at every WP, above even the "FAC Assign Group" command, would not work. I have never had to do this to get JTAC to work in SP; either one waypoint radio freq/mod order at the first WP "carries over" to all the others, or it'll work simply by entering the freq/mod information in the unit's "Comm" field. I'm going to test this in my misssion and let you know how that goes.

[Cibit]

Sorry I do that myself but trial and error was how I found out. It seems glaringly obvious now. My bad:music_whistling:

[Druid_]

I have a mission in which there are 2 moving FACs, 2 stationary FACs & 1 AFAC.

 

The stationary FACs work great, the moving FACs work although 1 of them stops giving targets after target number 3 for some reason. The other moving FAC only provides 2 targets and works as advertised. I assign freq (using FM for all ground based FACs as IRL) and callsign at startup and then assign FAC targets 1&2 at waypoint 1 then target 3 at waypoint 3. Works ok.

 

The next targets at waypoints 8&12 don't for some reason. It's almost like becasue he's sent me home after the first 3 his logic is switched off & he won't assign anymore. Although he does speak to me.

 

Another thing I have noticed is that even if you set the AI OFF on a FAC unit he will still show up in the FAC menu list and will also speak to you about targets (so I have to activate them).

 

Badger, without seeing your mission it difficult to know what is wrong but it does look like the JTAC system needs some refining. My mission works in MP & SP and the freq isn't set at every waypoint. With moving FACs it does appear that using engage group is more effective than assign group but that is only my experience based on minimal testing.

 

With regard to your problem are you seeing the FACs callsign in the F4 JTAC menu? Does he respond or not at all? With my FACs the first 3 advanced options I set as follows:-

(First he is set as FAC in GUI).

Advanced Tab

1. Units freq is set (are you setting 66 FM or 66.0 FM btw?).

2. Units callsign is set

3. set immortal (or invisible A/R)

4. Hold Fire (cant have him as an invisible warrior, this aint predator vs aliens)

5. Assign Group or Engage Group with appropriate priority.

 

This ended up a bit of a ramble, but hope I've given you something to look at.

[Bahger]

Druid, as always, thank you.

 

The JTAC logic in the sim is indeed mysterious. Sometimes they will continue to FAC other, non-assigned targets after their assigned targets have been destroyed, which is impressive, at other times they are "on rails" and only see the specific targets they've been assigned. In one of my missions, an AFAC tasked to artillery at one end of a valley then directed me to infantry at the other, most gratifying, but you never know what you're going to get.

 

Before I entered the frequency/modulation next down from the top entry in the Waypoint/Advanced menu for every WP located in the area where he might actually have to transmit, I was getting no response on AM or FM, from any type of unit/target combo. Nada, nothing. I never had this problem or needed this workaround, when making JTAC missions for SP.

 

I always use "FAC Assign Group" rather than "FAC Engage Group" as the latter seems to imply orders for the FAC to actually engage.

 

Re. priorities, am I correct in stating that 0 is highest? And you get this option in "Engage" but not "Assign". Hmm.

 

Finally, I find AI on/off to be quite useless. Maybe I'm not understanding something but I have tried to use it to simulate SAM radar units switching on intermittently, as IRL, but overflying a/c always respond as though being painted.

[nomdeplume]

In the 'new task system' PDF there's mention of two different ways to assign targets to AFAC/JTAC units, I think they were referred to as 'attack' and 'engage' in the beta but may have been renamed. The only difference was that the 'attack' (which may now be 'assign'?) gave the unit magical knowledge of the target (i.e. it could always know its location, even if it didn't actually detect it) while 'engage' would require the unit's AI to independently detect the target before it would issue attack instructions to the player.

 

I think the latter is also what results in the 'no tasking available for now, stand by' message - when the AI knows it has targets left to assign, but hasn't actually detected them yet. But I don't play with the JTAC much and find it very mysterious when I do, so this is all just conjecture.

 

For the SAM radar, I think setting their ROE to 'hold fire' or 'return fire' (I use the latter) stops them using their radar. I've used this on a mobile SAM that I wanted to have move mid-mission, and it doesn't show up on the RWR once that occurs.

[Druid_]

Badger. If it doesn't mean to much work may I suggest you delete the FAC and start again with a new unit FAC. The reason I say this is becuase occasionally the ME produces some corrupt code. For example I am pulling my hair out on a 6 sec lag pause in a mission & I'm sure I am going to have to start again from scratch (well actually a much earlier save).

 

I think I might do some testing with the FAC and report back because I do believe there are issues with the FAC system that need reporting.

 

BTW priority 0 should be the highest.

 

Nomdeplume. Absolutely agree. I prefer to use 'engage group' for the FAC whenever the scenario allows. Its more realistic and I like the way mobile units keep sending targets whilst on the move. Works great in my SpecOps mission anyway. Like your solution to the mobile SAM units hadn't thought of that one, certainly didn't realise they switched off their radar. Great info. I did test the AI OFF with Static Sams & it did switch the SAM off but no good for mobile units.

 

Badger, I don't have any problems with AI avoiding AI OFF sam units, just tested this the other day and the SU25 attacked & wiped them out (forgot to turn the AI ON again doh), in fact if anything he went for them first instead of a closer target. I have the problem of making them do what I want sometimes, involves lots of ROE weapons hold, and reaction to threat ignore commands!

Edited May 26, 2011 by Druid_

[Bahger]

Well, Druid, I'm making progress in that my 2-ship Hog AFAC now talks to me but he's ignoring his assigned target (a FARP group) and FAC-ing a column of tanks instead.

 

I may take your advice and re-plot the whole FAC flight/triggers but can you suggest the optimal FAC commands in the waypoint/advanced menu to get the FAC flight to 9-line its briefed target and the best distance at which to set the start FAC-ing WP?

[Druid_]

If the FAC is airborne then apart from when the unit is obscured due to slope angle & line of sight FAC - engage group works well & is realistic. If you put the AFAC at 15,000 or above then unless the terrain is particularly mountainous he should have a visual on the enemy the whole time.

 

You can also assign priority on targets with this option (once again 0 is confusingly the highest priority). I also like to request cannon occasionally rather than AUTO just to make the player come in closer at lower levels. Else they'll just CBU from 12,000 ft !! Occasionally though the AFAC/FAC will designate targets out of order (i.e. not based on your priority) this is obviously a bug. I believe he does so based on proximity to each target when you call him.

 

As for the distance from the target, for a Hog AFAC I would keep him within 20k of the target group. Set up a race-track orbit offset to one side of the target group at about 15,000 ft should work.

 

Once more thing, as he's set up as an AFAC in the GUI options, he will designate any other targets he sees. If you dont want him to do this then you should delete the statement 'AFAC' in the advanced tab.

 

Here is the advanced options of my AFAC

 

If you dont want him to be seen by the enemy or want him to be indestructable then use the respective perform command invisible or immortal. Attached an example miz. Notice how AFAC ignores the other unit close by that isn't set as a 'engage group'. If you had left the FAC -a comment then he would have assigned you this target also (and possibly before your 2 assigned groups).

a10c afac.miz

Edited May 28, 2011 by Druid_

[Ripcord]

A couple of questions and observations -- first off, this thread is very imformative, I've referred to it several times now.

 

Question 1 re AFAC: What about setting a freq? No need to do this? I didn't see that in your A10C AFAC.miz setup.

 

Question 2 re AFAC: Have you had any success using SEARCH THEN ENGAGE TARGETS IN ZONE with the AFAC? Or does we pretty much have to use the FAC - ENGAGE GROUP to make the AFAC work properly?

 

Question 3 re JTAC: Not having much success using just the FAC command, without specifying the target groups. Is this a known issue? I ask because I had built a mission like that, and the JTAC would not respond. So I went through each and every one of the stock missions this morning and noted that each one with a JTAC has specific targets assigned by the JTAC. Going to test the same mission now using assigned targets to see if that makes any difference.

 

Ripcord

[Iceman2011]

Sometimes there isn't anything wrong with the JTAC advanced settings, just maybe some unit has been replaced, moved, renamed etc. anything like that. Sometimes it helps to go and set the settings again for JTAC, yes the same settings there was. Then it starts to work ... or not.

Today I had none of my JTACS on the radio list. All was correct in advanced settings I know. I went back to ME, and used drop-down menus to select the currently selected item, i.e. same setting, yeh JTACS came to radio menu, without changing anything. I think ED should really look into these issues with ME.