SAM Triangulation

[Thymo]

hey Echo, how did you change your hud in that video?

 

He put his HUD to standby mode just above the IFFCC switch and next to the HUD day/night mode switch.

[ENO]

So much luck is involved though

 

With more patience I find less luck is required. Not everyone can orbit in Place endlessly searching for elusive targets... It those who can generally find what they're looking for.

[Puma]

watched a video on this. Amazing application of simple tools. Love it. My random thoughts on the issue: A) why wouldn't a computer do this automatically for any threat detected on the rwr? B) I believe this should be called biangulation since you are only using two lines to locate an object in 2d space rather than triangulation which would be three lines to locate an object in three dimensions.

[Harzach]

I believe this should be called biangulation since you are only using two lines to locate an object in 2d space rather than triangulation which would be three lines to locate an object in three dimensions.

 

Triangles are not 3-dimensional shapes.

 

 

[ilikepie]

you're using 3 points, not lines.

[Puma]

Triangles are not 3-dimensional shapes.

 

 

Touche! Harzach for the win.

[PFunk1606688187]

This is a very basic technique in map reading called intersection. Any foot soldier before the era of GPS would be very familiar with it.

 

In terms of practical utility, it only makes sense inside of the weirdo bubble of DCS.

 

It would probably also be a lot more intuitive using a map in your lap versus doing this obtuse trickery with the CDU.

[Harzach]

you're using 3 points, not lines.

 

Actually, you are using four points to create two line segments, the intersection of which is the (fifth) point of interest.

 

Edited February 19, 2015 by Harzach

[PFunk1606688187]

The only reason people are using five points is because the device was not designed for it.

 

A line drawn on a paper map would be a line originating from a single point going into infinity and merely not drawn beyond a reasonable necessary length. Where it terminates is not indicative of anything.

 

The solution is three points in a two dimensional space which form a triangle, two sides of which were used to find the point of interest.

[Harzach]

The only reason people are using five points is because the device was not designed for it.

 

A line drawn on a paper map would be a line originating from a single point going into infinity and merely not drawn beyond a reasonable necessary length. Where it terminates is not indicative of anything.

 

The solution is three points in a two dimensional space which form a triangle, two sides of which were used to find the point of interest.

 

I'm not sure what it is you are trying to say. The reason five points are used is because that's how the process being discussed works.

[Puma]

I think he's trying to make it clear that the key to the solution lies in the trianglular portion of the picture. My original question was meant to be only about the syntax and the principal behind, so that's very valid. I agree that in this particular application, a-10c specific 5 points are involved and the pilots could come up with some applied name like Sam quint-markpoint-ulation, but the mathematicians would still call this triangulation.

[Supersheep]

I'm pretty surprised that there's still so much interest in this.

As the guy who made the youtube video on it* I see this as a neat and fun trick to do and, first of all, a good exercise on how to use the CDU. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

*(not that that gives me any authority, there are so many people who know so much more than me)

[Puma]

my interested shouldn't be given much weight. I've read the manual like six times, but am stil building my pit so despite hours of test flights, I haven't flown a single mission. From years Falcon AF experience, I anticipated that a system to locate threats would be pretty valuable.

[Harzach]

I think he's trying to make it clear that the key to the solution lies in the trianglular portion of the picture.

 

The key is to find the intersection of the two line segments, which is how triangulation works. All I have done in my previous posts is illustrate the topic being discussed. I just don't see the point (no pun) of his post.

[PFunk1606688187]

The point was to suggest people were becoming enthralled in semantics when the core of the puzzle is the triangle.

 

I often find that when people discuss concepts in these forums they simply cannot differentiate between the specific mechanics of applying a solution to a given context or tool versus the underlying nature of the solution itself, that is to say they don't see the triangle, they see 4 points in space used to create an X that finds a fifth without realizing that its just a clumsy way of finding a triangle.

[Pikey]

Or what about something that you can do in your head?

 

Fly straight at the Radar.

Note heading and turn 45 degrees right or left

Maintain constant speed in a straight line

When the RWR symbol is 90 degrees of your right (or left depending) do:

distance to Radar = speed x time for the distance it is away from you.

Or eg 0.1hrs x 200mph = 20 miles.

 

Hardest part is getting the time to a decimal of an hour in your head.

[PFunk1606688187]

Oh god, nevermind. My head is breaking.

 

Just call the F-16CJs.

[Harzach]

The point was to suggest people were becoming enthralled in semantics when the core of the puzzle is the triangle.

 

I often find that when people discuss concepts in these forums they simply cannot differentiate between the specific mechanics of applying a solution to a given context or tool versus the underlying nature of the solution itself, that is to say they don't see the triangle, they see 4 points in space used to create an X that finds a fifth without realizing that its just a clumsy way of finding a triangle.

 

Triangulation isn't about finding a triangle, it's about finding a point. The triangle is merely a by-product and of no real significance in and of itself.

 

At any rate, this horse is thoroughly beaten.

[PFunk1606688187]

The triangle is merely a by-product and of no real significance in and of itself.

 

I guess calling it triangulation was silly then. :huh:

[JaBoG32_Prinzartus]

Or what about something that you can do in your head?

 

Fly straight at the Radar.

Note heading and turn 45 degrees right or left

Maintain constant speed in a straight line

When the RWR symbol is 90 degrees of your right (or left depending) do:

distance to Radar = speed x time for the distance it is away from you.

Or eg 0.1hrs x 200mph = 20 miles.

 

Hardest part is getting the time to a decimal of an hour in your head.

 

Nope! Your calculation leading to 20 miles is just the distance that you have flown since your last turn. Hence "a" is 20 miles. You still have no clue how long "b" is. Am I right?

[ZaltysZ]

Nope! Your calculation leading to 20 miles is just the distance that you have flown since your last turn. Hence "a" is 20 miles. You still have no clue how long "b" is. Am I right?

 

His triangle is an isosceles triangle (ab=90 degrees, ac=45 degrees, bc=45 degrees), so a=b, while a<>c, nor b<>c.

[Tucano_uy]

Most probably, IRL, a couple of A-10s would probably be able to do all this automatically, using datalink and displaying the result on the TAD.

Speculation of course, but reasonable in my view.

[Flagrum]

Triangulation isn't about finding a triangle, it's about finding a point. The triangle is merely a by-product and of no real significance in and of itself.

 

At any rate, this horse is thoroughly beaten.

Nobody is looking for a triangle - yes, we are looking for a point ... of a triangle. Two points and two angles are known and by applying the geometry of a triangle we find the missing point.

 

*gives the horse the coup de grace*

[baltic_dragon]

..and here is how from talking how to find enemy SAMs we got into the theory of mathematics and geometry :)

 

Very useful thread, though I doubt that IRL A10s would have to do that in order to hunt SAMs as was said before..

[Wrecking Crew]

I'd define it as looking for the intersection of two lines.

 

 

Maybe, yes, two A-10Cs could work together where each draws its line, and then one A-10C sends two SPIs along its line to the other, who plots that line and looks for the intersection.

 

WC