Ka-50 Black Shark and infantry?

[Weta43]

Depends what you're after, & on how they've modelled hits by bullets.

If the "bullets" fall in discrete places somewhere inside the circle, & the circle extends beyond the edges of the target, then sometimes they'll miss, sometimes they'll hit. The bigger the circle is compared to the target, the less they'll hit.

If a little bit of the bullet lands everywhere in the circle, and they work out what percentage of the circle was covering the target & allocate that percentage of the damage for a hit, then they always hit you at least a bit - but then they could just decrease the amount of damage that an individual hit does ( so if you aren't covering the whole circle you'll aquire damage slowly, & if you can maneuver to the edge of the circle you'll collect even less).

Does mean they're fighting with shotguns though - you might not collect a lot of damage, but you're laways going to collect some.

 

Flying past 6 ground units with machine guns it's probably more realistic that you always collect some damage than that you never collect any 'cause they don't open up...

 

(also - Don't know how it works for peole who know what they're doing, but I think with a belt fed machine-gun maybe I'd "wave it around" a bit anyway ??? like passing the Gun piper over the target in the SU25T ? )

[GGTharos]

The doctrine dictates that the commander chooses an aimpoint, then has all the guns fire at it. You don't track the target (like the guns in LOMAC do) ... you keep firing until out of ammo, cease fire, or the target is hit or missed - at THAT POINT. THat's what I mean.

[Whisper]

Back in front of my computer .

About infantry in other sims, I clearly remember mentions of AK-47 shots on my F-16 in F4 debriefings, and seeing the shots going up trying to hit me.

EECH also modelled troop insertion with Hind and Blackhawk.

You can assign a paradrop mission to C-130 in JFA-18 editor.

 

I'm not asking for a complete infantry simulation. Just something more than current Igla launcher.

[Witchking]

thats a big blow that lomac engine doesn't support skeletal animation :(

 

if u notice ARCADE sims like apache assault from activision value and comache 4 also had the moving infantry.

 

ED pls have a look at comache 4 ...it has amazing immersive feeling. the AI units are soo good.

[Weta43]

GG - I don't get what you mean - by commander do you mean the gun control system for automated (radar guided) systems? & are you saying it picks a (stationary) spot it expects the target to pass through & fires at that point till it either hits or misses & if it misses it picks another stationary point etc? So the maximum traverse rate for vulcans etc (both in the horizontal & vertical axis) should be 0 degree/sec while actually firing ?

Or have I missed it ?

Still - the actively tracking & shooting in bursts makes sense as a realistic model for machine gunners on IFV's, APC's etc - No?

[GGTharos]

Sorry, I'll elaborate.

 

For machine gunners (I'll stick to MG's for now) the way it works is, the commander picks a set aimpoint and they all aim at it (they aim in relation to the AC, so they all know where to point their guns) ... erm 'they' being the troops under this person's command - everyone who can open fire does.

Once he says fire, they let loose until otherwise told. There's no bursts and no tracking, they just saturate that point, and it's typically about 200m ahead of the aircraft. The aircraft is travelling between 100 and 200m/s. Bad news.

 

This is for vehicle MGs, rifles, man-portable MGs, etcetc. Anything that throws bullets.

 

 

For vehicle mounted cannons, such as the Bradley's 25mm, the technique is indeed a burst into a slightly better predicted point - about 20 rounds. I will have to check and see if it's different tactic for jets versus helis, although obviously the amimpoint and effective ranges are different.

[Weta43]

So to emulate that you could leave the aiming logic resonably precise, but

have 2 traverse rates 1 for tracking , another for firing, & minimum burst sizes.

Set the traverse rate for non automated guns to 0 degree/sec while firing, give machine MG's a relatively long minimum burst (3-4 sec) , but let Bradleys have a short burst (0.5 sec).

Flying low over a machine gun, they would get 1 chance to pick where you were going to be & by the time they'd finished their burst you'd be gone ( though anyone following could pass through the persisting fire ! ), But a Bradley or other larger caliber guns would get 6 or 7 short bursts off...

[GGTharos]

No, the canons fire a burst of 20 or so, that's it.

 

MG's fire 'till you pass the aimpoint, are out of ammo, or are ordered to cease fire.

[Weta43]

& presumably if they're not hitting anything after 3-4 sec that's when the commander says stop & gives them another aim point ( or the commander either said fire too early or there's a whole swarm of aircraft coming in from generaly the same point.)

So rather than just constraining it with a 0 degree/sec traverse rate while firing, and a minimum burst size you'd also set a minimum time from the start of firing till the next time they're allowed to re-aim (or fire - same thing), which would change with skill level.

That way MG's pick a spot & fire at it. After a couple of seconds it would appear as if s/one tells them to stop & a second or two later gives them a new aim point - if there's still a target to shoot at & remembering that each ground unit would actually be acting independantly so with several units they would be taking turns filling a stationary cone in the air with rounds (the shape of which is dictated by the CEP).

Vehicle mounted cannons would track to a point, fire a burstat it then there would be a pause simulating the time while they manually re-aquire the target & pick a new aim point.

The way AI units seem to track here (they don't lead much) would mean that only the first few rounds would be likely to hit a plane tracking fast across their view, more if they turn back into the fire, or are heading more or less down the guns barrel, but that sounds like the case with the description you gave anyway, & could be sorted by increasing the amount of lead they use.

Still - you're right - it's more complicated than just realy cranking up the CEP for MG's, though in the interim I'd be happy with that as a means of allowing everything to fire - being dangerous but not ridiculously so

[akdavis]

Well, Chizh has said that the engine does not currently support sceletal animation, which makes it impossible to model "moving" infantry with any reasonable degree of dynamics. AFAIK, there's no definitive word yet as to what the plans are for the add-on, but (persoanlly) I don't think we should hold our breath too much.

 

Why use this engine to do a close-support helicopter sim?

[Weta43]

Because the KA50's going in an add on to the existing game...

[Prophet_169th]

Back in front of my computer .

About infantry in other sims, I clearly remember mentions of AK-47 shots on my F-16 in F4 debriefings, and seeing the shots going up trying to hit me.

EECH also modelled troop insertion with Hind and Blackhawk.

You can assign a paradrop mission to C-130 in JFA-18 editor.

 

I'm not asking for a complete infantry simulation. Just something more than current Igla launcher.

 

Recently a US Border Patrol helicopter was downed by detainee's thrown rocks.

 

Maybe if the town is occupied by the enemy, you can have civilians throwing rocks =D

[GGTharos]

& presumably if they're not hitting anything after 3-4 sec that's when the commander says stop & gives them another aim point ( or the commander either said fire too early or there's a whole swarm of aircraft coming in from generaly the same point.)

So rather than just constraining it with a 0 degree/sec traverse rate while firing, and a minimum burst size you'd also set a minimum time from the start of firing till the next time they're allowed to re-aim (or fire - same thing), which would change with skill level.

That way MG's pick a spot & fire at it. After a couple of seconds it would appear as if s/one tells them to stop & a second or two later gives them a new aim point - if there's still a target to shoot at & remembering that each ground unit would actually be acting independantly so with several units they would be taking turns filling a stationary cone in the air with rounds (the shape of which is dictated by the CEP).

Vehicle mounted cannons would track to a point, fire a burstat it then there would be a pause simulating the time while they manually re-aquire the target & pick a new aim point.

The way AI units seem to track here (they don't lead much) would mean that only the first few rounds would be likely to hit a plane tracking fast across their view, more if they turn back into the fire, or are heading more or less down the guns barrel, but that sounds like the case with the description you gave anyway, & could be sorted by increasing the amount of lead they use.

Still - you're right - it's more complicated than just realy cranking up the CEP for MG's, though in the interim I'd be happy with that as a means of allowing everything to fire - being dangerous but not ridiculously so

 

 

Ah, I see now what you meant - you were talking about it from a programming point of view.

 

Yeah, the only problem with the CEP is that the ranges they fire at pretty much negate the CEP. MG's are accurate out to 900m according to what I read, the brad's out to 2km almost with their guns.

 

Anyway, as you probably gleaned, you're hoping to kill the thing you're shooting at, or at least damage OR scare it away, and its friends, too. It's the 'I dare you to fly through this wall of lead' thing.

 

Obviously actual AA will work differently, they are better trained to handle airborne targets.

[Prophet_169th]

Real AA guns would be nice =)

 

Love seeing the wall of flak in F4, would look very impressive in LOMAC.

[SUBS17]

No, the canons fire a burst of 20 or so, that's it.

 

MG's fire 'till you pass the aimpoint, are out of ammo, or are ordered to cease fire.

 

MGs fire until their belt runs out or the barrel requires changing. Gunners can be ordered to fire at will also. Depends on ROE, and also how serious the threat is. In some cases they can engage the aircraft the moment they see it(within reason) eg Faulklands war, a Pucara tried to drop Napalm on Brit soldiers, no orders were given. As soon as the aircraft could be heard everyone had their weapons ready and opened fire the moment it was in range. The pucara was brought down straight away, in another incident an SAS patrol was just returning to the main infantry lines when a Pucara decided to make an attack. Without saying anything an SAS soldier pulled out a stinger and fired taking the aircraft out.

[SUBS17]

Real AA guns would be nice =)

 

Love seeing the wall of flak in F4, would look very impressive in LOMAC.

 

AAA in F4 is more WWIIish, the AAA in lockon is more realistic in my view. For a helicopter sim you still need soldiers on the ground. Its impractical not to have them.

[akdavis]

Because the KA50's going in an add on to the existing game...

 

The original question still stands.

[GGTharos]

Why use this engine to do a close-support helicopter sim?

 

 

Because they don't have time to write a new one.

[Orao]

AAA in F4 is more WWIIish, the AAA in lockon is more realistic in my view. For a helicopter sim you still need soldiers on the ground. Its impractical not to have them.

 

 

Hey SUB check the video footage for Desert Storm and Allied Force. You'll see that the flak is still there eventhough its accuracy is more than null.

 

As for infantry, well it's too bad that this engin dosen't support skeleton animations. It would have been awsome to have an infantry. But ED didn't think about that in first place when they started the write this engine.

[Pilotasso]

Skeletal animations? we can always go around that by assigning the soldier uper torso as a turret and leggs that rotate around like road runner from WB cartoons, or if you want to avoid that, you can go politicaly incorrect by making soldiers on weelchairs!

[Prophet_169th]

Infantry would be nice, but the chopper is still meant for anti-armor.

 

I would be happy with more armor, and better AI for the armor.

[504MrWolf]

i remember they were also working on a driveable AAA and SAM's ? It was said by a DEV they had made some driveable but had no internal features/textures and where having great fun with it :)!

 

Have they abandoned it ?

[ALDEGA]

i remember they were also working on a driveable AAA and SAM's ? It was said by a DEV they had made some driveable but had no internal features/textures and where having great fun with it :)!

 

Have they abandoned it ?

It was probably just for testing Su-25T damage model ... and having fun, the sneaky way ;)

[akdavis]

Infantry would be nice, but the chopper is still meant for anti-armor.

 

Actually, Ka-50 is a daylight close-support helicopter with potent anti-armor ability. Maybe if Cold War had continued it would not have evolved to that role, but current reality has led to that, much as with the Apache.

[SUBS17]

Hey SUB check the video footage for Desert Storm and Allied Force. You'll see that the flak is still there eventhough its accuracy is more than null.

 

As for infantry, well it's too bad that this engin dosen't support skeleton animations. It would have been awsome to have an infantry. But ED didn't think about that in first place when they started the write this engine.

 

Yeah, if you're hitting a target in AF thats protected by AAA the flak that appears is like in WWII movies. And that includes higher altitudes as well. At low altitude its alot more realistic as you have tracer which is why I find lockons AAA and armoured vehicle tracer more realistic. You don't need animated infantry either, just fixed 3d objects might do although you can use 2 3d objects for an infantry man. You can use 1 which is fixed firing(like igla) which pivots to engage moving targets. And 2 a running figure thats not animated but slides across the terrain at running speed(20-30km/h for a soldier in combat). Or walking pace 1-7km/h during a patrol. That way you can have battles with infantry and still represent a more realistic fight.