New Rig

[schimmel]

Hi all

 

My good old ATi 9700 is screwed :(. I get random BSODs, especially when I switch on AA or AF.

 

Now I'm thinking about a new system. I hate to build it on my own, due do lots of difficulties in the past (compatibility issues...). That's why I want a Dell.

 

The problem is, Dell only sells Intel CPUs. Since Lock On doesn't support dual core, this is no good for me. The single core CPUs by Intel are well behind the ones of AMD. At 3800 GHz a Intel CPU costs twice as much as a AMD one.

So forget about Dell? Can the devs give any information on possible dual core support in the future (1.2 or even later, a "don't know yet" would also be an answer).

 

Let's get to the GFX card. What is the difference between a 6800 GT and 7800 GT in Lomac besides 250€?

 

Any help is appreciated.

[KuostA]

A bit aside from the question, But just wanted to say that you shouldn't buy a complete computer like that from Dell. They are Much more expensive, and when a part needs to be replaced, you really have limited options. For gaming, Always go with AMD over Intel.

 

Trust me, building a computer from scratch seems daunting, yes, but its worth it! Spend some time researching and buy the parts off of sites like Newegg.com or monarch.com. Prices are Much cheaper and you can find some phenomenal deals.

 

If you want to, you could drive over to a local PC shop and ask them to put the computer together for you. They'll set up everything for you in a few hours and you'll be ready to go!

[schimmel]

Guess what? I'm following your advice ;). I'm going to build my new system on my own.

 

So no position on the dual core thing yet :-/. I would be very glad to get an answer. It's not a huge difference in price. I just don't want to put my money on the wrong horse. No biggie, this is my last try.

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

dont get dualcore unless you need it for something else other than games, i would rather have an fx55/57 instead of DC

 

just my opinion, even tho it is a shithot cpu...

[Slammin]

Just because something isn't written to take advantage of dual core/multi cpu's does not automatically mean it won't run on it. I just built my new system based on a 3800X2 and LockOn runs great on it!

 

I see absolutely zero reason to buy a single core cpu over a dual core right now.

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

you would get better performance with fx55/57 than you will with dualcore, at this moment in time dualcore is so new that the problems havent been ironed out, if i was building a system, i would go for single core high end chip rather than another dualcore cpu, dont get me wrong they are magic cpus, but for gaming they are not as good as the fx55/57 range, and as most apps/ games in the next year will be single core solutions then i dont really see the need for dualcore unless as i stated above you multitask like hell, also be prepared to tweak your games, as i have had to do it on many games that simply DONT RUN on dualcore machines properly, ive had to use procaff to force them to run on 1 core, similar to multiplayer lockon, single player works perfect, multiplayer stutters, same with battlefield vietnam, it crashes after i logon to a server unless i have used procaff, also same with splinter cell games, they all basically crash after startup, i.e. they give you 1fps unless you force the game to run on one core, now if you dont mind having to mess with games to get them to run properly, and i am not saying all games, i can play bf2 hl2 css all without any tweaking etc then get dualcore, but as i say i would rather have a fx57 or 55 at a push over dualcore for the next year anyway, as you will get better performance and without the tweaking to get the game to run properly.....

basically dualcore isnt needed yet and wont be for the foreseeable future, and when it finally does take full advantage of dualcore cpus then it will be time to buy a faster cpu

[Prophet_169th]

Also, dont assume that just because the clock is faster, that it is 'ahead' =)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

dont get dualcore unless you need it for something else other than games, i would rather have an fx55/57 instead of DC

 

If you build your system, you know that it is very easy to overclock CPU! So you should never buy the latest processor. Always buy next to latest, FX-55 in this case! It takes few minutes to overcloack yor CPU, you will save few hundred dollars and will get the system that works as fast as the more expansive one!

[Glowing_Amraam]

Hey, do like i do, build from scratch :D

[BuzzU]

Doesn't F4AF support DC?

[TucksonSonny]

Guess what? I'm following your advice ;). I'm going to build my new system on my own.

 

So no position on the dual core thing yet :-/. I would be very glad to get an answer. It's not a huge difference in price. I just don't want to put my money on the wrong horse. No biggie, this is my last try.

 

Why taking the risk for doing it yourself?

 

Local dealers can do the job for less than € 40 ($ 50) and are better qualified for using the best power supply/cooling together with your system.

Mostly on a rig like that they always give you a reduction which is equal or greater than the € 40 for installation/testing/over-clocking of your system.

 

Last year in January 2004 my local dealer gave me a Christmas reduction: I paid only for the parts! :rolleyes:

 

Anyway they have not that much clients buying FX-55/57 or X2 systems!

 

Remember that the FX-55 is still a little bit faster than the dual X2 4800+(110Watt) and produce less heat and is about 104 Watt.

Of course the FX-57(also 104 Watt) is the king of games/sims! ;)

 

The problem is that the FX-55 stock will disappear very soon (already happened at my local supplier)

For the moment I found:

AMD Athlon 64 FX-57 - Sock 939 - 2800Mhz - 1MB cache - Boxed 1.125,10 € (Incl. 21% tax)

AMD Athlon 4800+ 64Bit X2 Dual-Core Sock 939 - 2400Mhz - 2 x 1MB - Boxed 971,40 € (Incl. 21% tax)

[schimmel]

I definately don't have the money for a fx-55. My system should be around 1000-1250€.

 

Problem is, that nearly all the local stores have a bad reputation here. They are very cheap, compared to internet store prices, but unfortunately this is reflected in their customer support. The "qualified" person who builds your system is most of the time an underpaid student who doesn't give a s*** about how well your system works, because he will not work there anymore in a month anyway.

 

Well anyway, thx for your advices. I'll just try this time to build it on my own. If it goes wrong, I'll call KuostA :D. It'll be something like 4000+. As a GFX card I'll take a 6800 GT, since I don't expect a big difference compared to a 7800 GT.

[Nate Dogg]

I think you will find the 7800GT will slap the 6800GT around a fair bit in games. Thats why it cost more! Take a look at a few benchmarks and such you will see.

cheers

[schimmel]

Sure. I should have pointed out, that this is strictly related to Lock On. Or do you think there might be a significant difference there too? Is there no freak who just upgraded a 6800 GT to a 7800GT :)? I don't play any other games which would need a high-end card.

[D17S]

The top AMD 2X 4800 is has a duel core of 2.4 ghz processors. Since LOMAC can only run on one of these, it seem that this “duelie” will only provide the same performance as a single core AMD 4000+ (The 4000+ is a 2.4 ghz processor).

 

The “4800” might be a reference to some theoretical performance measurement. Maybe it's a comparison between running two applications that fully utilize the duel cores . . . and then running those same apps on some equivalent of a 4800 single core. Are they saying the duel core 4800 runs multi-tasks the same as a single core 4800? Maybe?

 

If so, this “4800” name implies a single core performance somewhere around where an FX55/57 would be numbered if AMD continued their “3000+”, “4000+” labeling scheme.

 

So, if AMD’s “4800” name can be used as a guide, it could be that an FX55/57 will provide same performance in multithreaded apps as a 2X 4800, but much more in single threaded apps. The Intel top duelie only run at 3.2ghz each, so we can forget about that altogether!

 

In single threaded applications, it may be that an AMD 4000+ will provide equivalent performance to a 2X ANYTHING. In multi-thread, it may be that an FX55 is still the equivalent to any 2X processor and the FX57 beats everything, 2X, or not.

 

Also about GPU, I found my 3.2ghz, P4 (driving a 17” @ 10X7) found no benefit from a 6800GT over a 6600GT. I was CPU/Monitor limited. The 6800GT just wasn’t being fed enough data to let it really sing and my monitor couldn’t use the additional output the 6800GT had available. For me, the 6800GT would have been a $250 waste of money. This can happen. You might want to experiment a bit. There’s no sense spending $$ on a Vcard your system cannot take advantage of. Depending on the CPU and Monitor you end up with, a 6800GT might be the best match. Heck, my match ended up being a 6600.

 

What I found was that a bigger Vcard will not necessarily translate into better performance at normal lower resolutions. But, if you are driving a 24” LCD at 12X16, pony up for that 7800!

[Slammin]

Lotta speculation and guessing going on here. Well, for comparison, if there is any at all, my old rig =

 

P4 3.0E@ 4.1 water cooled

1gb G.Skill LE

Nec 22" monitor

BFG 6800GT OC

LockON avg fps down low @1280x1024 = 27fps

 

New system:

 

3800X2@2800 water cooled

1gb G.Skill LE

Dell 2405 LCD

2x XFX7800GT

LockOn avg fps down low @1900x1200 = 48fps

 

And no, an FX-57 will not keep up with a dual core cpu when dealing with multi threaded apps. That's just crazy! And yes, Falcon4, Doom3 and a few other titles will take advantage of duallies, as well as many current applications. And the price of the FX-57 vs this 3800X2 is quite huge, and just about all the X2's are getting 600+ overclocks on air lately, so to me it was a no brainer.

 

I have not had to fiddle with any of my current games to get them to work. What I am seeing though is that AMD is not as plug-n-play as Intel is. You have to load cpu drivers as well as chipset and weird stuff like that with AMD. Nothing hard, but just different.

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

LockOn avg fps down low @1900x1200 = 48fps

 

= noway, ppl with better rigs than you dont even get that, me i dont get that, fx55 dudes with 2x78gtxs dont get that, especially at that resolution, unless low to you is like 2000 metres.. i totally disagree as to what you say you get... over cities down low say 500-1000ft i get 18-40ish even 9 over cities down low,which i have just recently found out about and i got xfx 7800gtxs sli 490/1300 and 2gb ram 2-2-2-5 4400dc.

 

the only way you could possible get that, is if you havent got all settings turned up to there highest or got mods to tweak the game or have turned AA/AF to there lowest which with your rig would be kinda stupid.

 

I am not saying that you dont get 48fps but average = give or take a few fps so you would constantly get either low forties or low fifties all the time down low, then your average would come from between that.

 

if you do constantly get 48fps low down then i got wrong rig, maybe i should buy the 3800x2 and get a set of 7800gts and dump a gig of ram

[Slammin]

Actually, my XFX's are GTX's @490/1300. Sorry for the typo.

 

Obviously, we are no longer GPU limited and I suspect the biggest difference between what you get vs what I get is cpu. Set your ram to 2.5-3-2-6 and pump your fsb up to 250 (I consider that a modest oc) and see for yourself.

[D17S]

Opps, I was thinking the X2 4200 was the bottom X2 line. I was wrong about that, but I then went on to mistakenly concluded that the X2 "3800" descriptions must have been a typo that really meant a X2 "4800."

 

So, as it turns out, AMD's X2 3800 is a 2.0 gig processor set. With this CPU, single threaded X2 3800 operation has to be compared to the 2.0 ghz AMD 3200+. This suggests that a user will see an X2 3800 single thread performance equal to an Intel 3.2 ghz processor.

 

So, here we have an Intel 3.2 with SLI'd 7800s with fully maxed out max settings down-low and down-town giving 40+ fps? . . . The AMD equivalent of an Intel 3.2 will do this?!! This is absolutely not normal performance. We have never seen anything like this. There was a thread in this forum that had an FX55 with SLI'd 6800GT dropping to 8 fps in this setting.

 

Generally, even a single 7800 would be an overmatch for a 3.2 CPU (with a normal monitor), but we're still sorting out these new dualies.

 

But back to the X2 labeling issue. That X2 “XXXX” must mean something. I'll use the X2 4800 for the following discussion.

 

AMD has always used the “XXXX” format to refer to some kind of CPU clock speed comparison to an Intel processor. So, I will assume that is the case here. The best I can figure is that the "4800" is referring to an "equivalent speed" . . . but what aspect of their processor ability to “process” are they saying is equivalent to what "Other Thing?"

 

Here goes . . . Since the X2 4800 is a set of 2.4ghz CPUs, the 4800 "speed equivalent" reference could not possibly be referring to the X2's single CPU performance. The single core, AMD 2.4 ghz CPU is branded a "4000+".

 

Therefore, that "4800" MUST be referring to both CPUs "on line" (i.e., multithreaded). The name, "X2", I get. There are 2 processors: But where did this name "4800" come from? AMD is attempting to compare the X2's multi-threaded operation to some other thing. What is this "Other Thing?"

 

If AMD had continued their "3000+", "4000+" naming scheme, AMD would be calling their FX55/57 CPUs somewhere around a "4800+" by now. Here's AMD's possible basis for comparison. Could it be that AMD's "4800" label is describing that an X2 4800 will give the same performance as an FX55/57 under any circumstances, multi-threaded or not. The X2 4800 dual-core, in a full multi-threaded environment, will provide the same performance as a single core FX 55/57 in the same environment. Further (this reasoning would continue), in a single-threaded environment, the X2 4800 will not come anywhere close to an FX 55/57's performance. Right? Heck, I don't know . . . just trying to unravel AMD's marketing description! What do you think?

 

On the O/C'ing front, one thing to consider is that those 2 cores throw off lots of heat. Intel has a 3.8 single core, but they could only use the 3.2 for their Dualie. AMD only went with the 2.4, when they have a production 2.8 available. This is a heat issue. Overclocking is also somewhat of a “heat limited” issue. Unless the X2's cores can be O/C'ed separately, it looks like heat problems will be a factor in O/C'ing these CPUs.

 

The duel core X2 4800 at 2.4ghz O/C'ing 600 mhz (to 3.0) sounds very optimistic. Both cores would be at this RPM. That dual core 800 mhz, 2.0 to 2.8 O/C sound quite impressive too. That 2X is also 2X the heat. Get out the liquid nitrogen.

 

I'd really like to see a "shoot-out" article with the FXs vs the X2s.

 

Let's all write Anandtech and get em on it!

[Slammin]

"The X2 4800 dual-core, in a full multi-threaded environment, will provide the same performance as a single core FX 55/57 in the same environment."

 

Is only one of the most profound statements you make, but then to go on and on, even to speculate what you think you know about overclocking and heat... Really, who do you think is your audience here? Not going to go beating my chest and list all of my qualifications, and for me to even speak of overclocking in this forum is probably out of line on my part. Not like I'm some expert, but I do know a thing or two about the subject.

 

What I will say is that until Intel came out with HyperThreading, every system I've built for years before were all dual cpu systems. I was certain I would never buy another single cpu system, but HT changed that.

 

Now, with dual core, I can say with a lot of certaintly that I will not buy another non-dual core machine :-)

 

So, guess all you want. Talk about heat issues you have no clue on, all you want. By the way, have you ever removed a heat spreader from an AMD X2 3800? I have. Have you ever water cooled a cpu? I have - several.

 

So again, I'm probably wrong to say what I do, but I think saying what you 'think', challenging what I do, is being a little more than just too presumptious.

[D17S]

Easy there, big fella.

 

It's just that we've never seen that kind of performance. LOMAC will not use dual cores. It will only run on ONE of those 2.0 ghz CPUs. For LOMAC, that's the performance of an AMD 3200+ with SLI'd 7800. 40+ fps at 19X12, max settings, downtown? Even with an O/C to an FX57's 2.8, it just makes no sense with what we've ever seen. It's can't just be the hardware.

 

Something else must be going on. Something detailed. We need it all. Tell us what, how, where . . . details, please!!!

 

This is not about challenging anyone's credibility. If anyone ever "just believes" me, we're all in very big trouble. In technical matters, An Ethos approach to discussion ("believe me") is as useless as Pathos tactic ("believe me, or else!") . Follow the reasoning, then consider the thinking. Actually, the person presenting the information is totally irrevelent. Whisky, bring me whisky. Dang, I need a drink!

[D17S]

Schimmel, still there?

 

You have some good background now so here’s a shot at actually answering your question. You can build your own. The old snap together, plug and play compatibility issues have come a long way. The component manufactures have pretty well got this figured out now. You can do it, end up with a major system . . . and you can do it for $1000. Here we go . . .

 

Here’s your processor. AMD 3000+ rev E @ $150.

This is your big bargain. But you must get the “Rev E” version for a 939 pin socket. You are saving $850.00 here . . . because you are going to take a shot at overclocking this 3000+ to the performance of an FX57. If this rig is for LOMAC, forget about the dual cores (but I pretty well covered that!) Hexus over clocked this “3000+ Rev E” from its stock 1.8ghz to 2.8ghz with an air cooler (2.8ghz is the clock speed of an $1000 FX57) here:

http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xMjU1JnVybF9wYWdlPTE=

 

Buy it here:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103537&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch&ATT=Microprocessors+PC

 

 

Here’s the CPU cooler: $60

You MUST buy an aggressive cooler. This is the best air cooler available today. Forget about water. It’s cool, but too much trouble.

The cooler

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article186-page1.htmlt

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835109118

 

and the fan: $15

http://2cooltek.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/95

 

Here’s you Motherboard. Abit AN8-SLI Fatality @ $200

It’s expensive yes, but this is what is going to allow you to overclock that CPU and have it A-OK for everyday use. It’s an SLI board so it will allow you to drop in a second 6800GT sometime in the future. Plus, it’s just about the best board you can buy. This is big time quality. Spend money here!

http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/products.php?categories=1&model=246

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127206

 

 

Here’s you power supply: @ $150

Again, big time quality. You must have top power. It all hinges on this piece.

http://www.xoxide.com/enermax-600w-eg701ax-sfma2-sli.html

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817194001

 

Here’s your ram. PC 3200 dual channel gig-O-ram @ $70

This is fine. Low latency regular ‘ol ram.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145452&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch&ATT=System+Memory

 

or faster stuff. Get this FOR SURE . . You are at $925 total cost with the $70 stuff. Buy this if you can..

PC 4400 @ $180

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145550

 

 

Vcard: 6800GT @ $280

This will be plenty for your rig. The 3000+ is set at 1.8 ghz and you are going to try to overclock it to 2.8. Sounds good on paper, but you are might only going to get to 2.4-2.6 on that processor (Heck, that’s the same as an AMD 4000+/FX55. What do you want?!!). A 6800GT is a good match for that if you are going to be driving a normal monitor. If you are going to be driving a 24 inch LCD, the 7800 will be good. Display size costs. How big do you want to go?!! But, if you have a regular sized monitor, the 6800GT will be fine. (You must get the “GT” version. The plain 6800 is NOT the same.)

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814135171&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch&ATT=Video+Cards

 

Box:

Buy one that does not have a power supply included or use your old one.

 

What else? You have hard drives already?

 

Even with the faster ram, you are at around $1000 here.

 

Do not get a Dell unless you have them build it to your specs. For instance, if you get a lesser video card and want to upgrade later, you will have to buy a new power supply too. Dell knows how to build a computer that is precisely configured for exactly what is in it. A new Vcard will overload the PS.

 

So for a price comparison, compare this rig to a Dell with an Intel 3.8 ghz cpu You are going for a CPU preformance equal to an Intel 5.0 ghz processor (FX57 at 2.8) . . but Intel doesn't make this. You will almost certainly get to the same performance as an Intel 4.0 . . . but Intel doesn't even make one of these either! Use Intel's 3.8 as a comparison. It's the fastest intel makes. Use 1 gig of dual channel ram, a 800 mhz fsb, and a 6800GT Vcard. Do not worry about a sound card. Onboard sound is fine. Use the cheapest “everything else” because you already have the op system, keyboards, mice, HDs, etc.

 

Here's Dell's answer at $2570. You are not building a little rig. This is a serious gaming machine. If you get that 3000+ to overclock to anything above about 2.3, yours will be faster than anything that Intel even makes.

 

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DXPS600SAP&s=dhs

 

Look it all over. You’ll never regret building your own . . . well not quite that . . . you’ll be ready to throw it out the window at some point, but you will get through it. You will now be your local computer guru and be able to fix anything. No more computer shops. It is a learning curve, but well worth the trouble.

 

BTW, the arguments go on forever (see above!) that this is better than that and so on. This is a basic list that will get you started. These are all at least Very Good components that will serve you well . . . and for $1000 . . . I say, GO FOR IT! We’ll help.