Damper and friction effects in force feedback for Black Shark

[Hunden Ynk]

Thanks a lot average_pilot! About the trim mode; why not just call it "helicopter-style" and "fixed-wing-style", or similar, just as you describe.

 

BBQ, also great work! You could add to the description, that by using simFFB, you gain the amazing ability to set curves and dead-zones from inside your sim. That might not be obvious.

 

Finally to add another start option, if you prefer Autohotkey:

SetWorkingDir, C:\Spel\DCS World\simFFB_64\ ; Path to simFFB
GroupAdd, simFFBGroup, ahk_class SIMFFB

#^f:: ; Execute on WIN+CTRL+f
If (WinExist("ahk_group simFFBGroup"))
   {
   WinClose,ahk_group simFFBGroup
   }
Run simFFB.exe
return

That GroupAdd and If part is to find and close any previous running instances of simFFB.exe before launching it, for extra neatness.

[BBQ]

Thanks a lot BBQ.

Just one thing. You don't have to select the FFB joystick. Of course, 99% of times you'll want to use a button on the FFB joystick. But, for example, people with modified joysticks, like msffb2 joysticks with the x52 grip, will select the x52 and a button in the x52. For whatever reason, if you need it, you can select any other joystick. If I'm still not clear on this let me know.

 

And, about that "progressive" trim mode... nobody gets it but the problem is that I don't know what would be the correct expression for that. It refers to the way the trimmer typically works in a fixed-wing aircraft. You press the trim button (in those with electrical trimmers) and the force progressively disappears with time as you keep the button down. Or in a plane with a traditional manual trimmer, it equals to move the trim wheel until you feel that the force in the stick or yoke is gone.

So I need a more proper expression to refer to the normal trimmer you find in almost any aircraft.

 

Perhaps "Progressive Easing" is a better term to describe it? Initially I assumed that it meant every new push of the trim button would use the previous state as the "center", so if you first moved it 1" forward and trimmed, and then moved it forward another 1" and trimmed, it would have referenced the 1" forward position as the "center" instead of the actual center, i.e., progressively moving the center with each subsequent application of trim. Ack -- I'm not describing this well -- for some reason the analogy of "Compounded Interest" comes to mind!

 

Thanks a lot average_pilot! About the trim mode; why not just call it "helicopter-style" and "fixed-wing-style", or similar, just as you describe.

 

BBQ, also great work! You could add to the description, that by using simFFB, you gain the amazing ability to set curves and dead-zones from inside your sim. That might not be obvious.

 

Finally to add another start option, if you prefer Autohotkey:

SetWorkingDir, C:\Spel\DCS World\simFFB_64\ ; Path to simFFB
GroupAdd, simFFBGroup, ahk_class SIMFFB

#^f:: ; Execute on WIN+CTRL+f
If (WinExist("ahk_group simFFBGroup"))
   {
   WinClose,ahk_group simFFBGroup
   }
Run simFFB.exe
return

That GroupAdd and If part is to find and close any previous running instances of simFFB.exe before launching it, for extra neatness.

 

Hunden -- not sure about adding the curves/dead-zones description, as I've read too many times, and from too many authorities, that for the best simulation of the real thing, the default linear setup is the way to go.

 

BTW -- I checked out Autohotkey, and found something similar for my Linux box at work -- I love it! Thanks for sharing!

[Hunden Ynk]

Yeah, forget I mentioned the curves/dead-zone, I was prematurely happy; thought I found a way to reduce the sloppy center impact of my stick. But DCS does not move the center point of the curves/dead-zones as you trim. Kind of expected, but I wanted to believe. :cry:

[average_pilot]

Yeah, forget I mentioned the curves/dead-zone, I was prematurely happy; thought I found a way to reduce the sloppy center impact of my stick. But DCS does not move the center point of the curves/dead-zones as you trim. Kind of expected, but I wanted to believe. :cry:

Dead-zone is not possible. Curves not a good idea. But saturation definitely yes. I'm myself using 65% saturation on the pitch and roll axes and control improves a lot. You can't go full speed because of that missing 35% of range, but the trade is worth it.

 

A moving dead-zone may be a great idea at first glance and intuitively easy to do, but when I tried to implement it some time ago with glovepie I found out that it's simply impossible. It's not easy to see and even harder to explain.

Edited September 29, 2013 by average_pilot

[PeroperoDokkiri]

I just got my G940, works great with FFBSIm! Just one question- should I even bother with ingame trim button assign? I mean I disabled FFB and any joystick buttons releated to trim, and FFBSIM takec care of everything- should I change anything ingame?

[average_pilot]

I just got my G940, works great with FFBSIm! Just one question- should I even bother with ingame trim button assign? I mean I disabled FFB and any joystick buttons releated to trim, and FFBSIM takec care of everything- should I change anything ingame?

With Black Shark, if you use FD then DCS does not need to know anything about the trim or force feedback. But if FD is off, then the sim needs to know when you trim and if you are using a force feedback joystick.

 

I don't know about the new helicopters.

[Suchacz]

UH-1H or Mi-8 don't read the trim button, it only controls their force trim system.

[PeroperoDokkiri]

In other words, I shouldn't care about DCS settings for uh-1 and mi-8, roght?

[PeterP]

Mi-8 don't read the trim button, it only controls their force trim system.

This is wrong.

 

The Roll/Pitch/Yaw and altitude (Barometric pressure only) autopilot channel are adjusted by depressing/releasing the trim button.

[Suchacz]

This is wrong.

 

The Roll/Pitch/Yaw and altitude (Barometric pressure only) autopilot channel are adjusted by depressing/releasing the trim button.

I dare to disagree, I checked Mi-17 manual again (page 4-19, 4-20) and there is nothing there about relation between autopilot and trim button. My DCS experience is the same.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Suchacz

[PeterP]

You are right , I'm wrong.

Now I made also some test and I realised that the SAS channels try to hold the Helicopter always in a level attitude as long the cyclic position allows it within a 20% authority.

Contrary to the Ka-50, there is no direct connection of the trim-button to the stabilisation channels in the Mi-8.

Sorry.

 

So:

In the Ka-50 its necessary to set up the trim button in SIMFFB the same as in DCS to let the simulation work realistic.

In the Huey and Mi-8 its not necessary (but you will miss the Click-Clack sound of the force-trim system).

Edited October 16, 2013 by PeterP

[Suchacz]

You are right , I'm wrong.

No problem :thumbup:

 

A16 kindly provided us some more precise description of Mi-8 autopilot:

I do not know how the real Ka-50 works, I only know how it is presented in-game. I make a lot of assumptions about the operation of the Ka-50 based on my Mi-17 experience.

 

I do know how the Mi-8/17 works, the autopilot included.

 

Consider that there are two control systems capable of affecting the movement of the helicopter: the pilot and the autopilot. With the autopilot off, the pilot has to make all control inputs (obviously). With the autopilot on, both the autopilot and the pilot provide control inputs to the hydraulic servos. If the pilot does not move the controls (again let's just assume only pitch and roll for the moment) then the autopilot will attempt to hold the helicopter's attitude within it's control authority of 20%. If the white bar on the trim indicator (the "black bar in the right corner" and also on the center console above the autopilot panel) for a channel deflects fully to one side or the other (or rolls all the way, or goes up or down all the way), it's at the limit of its control authority.

 

If the pilot moves the cyclic (for this, let's assume just roll channel, but the pitch channel is the same in this regard) left or right, a signal is generated by a feedback transducer in the flight controls that, in essence, tells the autopilot that the pilot moved the controls and by how much. In other words, if you don't touch the controls in level flight, and the aircraft starts rolling left, the autopilot will counteract that roll and try to level the aircraft. However, if you move the cyclic to the left to start the roll, the autopilot gets basically two signals...one from a gyro that tells it that the aircraft is rolling, and another from a feedback transducer that tells it that the pilot moved the cyclic. The two signals (assuming no turbulence) will be equal but opposite and cancel each other out. In this way, the autopilot will not interfere when the pilot moves the controls (this does not apply to the yaw or altitude channel, they are slightly different).

Edited October 17, 2013 by Suchacz

[Clyber]

Mssffb2

 

Try this version and let me know how it goes. First, try it without launching DCS.

If it doesn't work as expected, make a video using simffb so I can understand the problem.

 

Average,

 

I might need your help on this ff problem. The joystick it self seem to work okey.. but when i hit the trim button the joystick pulls to anither direction mostly to the right under.

First ill try your utility and ill get back to you.

[molevitch]

Average,

 

I might need your help on this ff problem. The joystick it self seem to work okey.. but when i hit the trim button the joystick pulls to anither direction mostly to the right under.

First ill try your utility and ill get back to you.

 

I am having this same problem! I have tried every which way I can think to fix it, but not been able to work it out.... Now, I just don't use trim.

 

I would be very happy if anyone knows how to sort this. I am using a PeterP style 2xmsffb2 cyclic mod,which is great, but I just cannot figure the settings out to sort this. I thought it was just me.

 

HELP! Please....

[sydost]

I am having this same problem! I have tried every which way I can think to fix it, but not been able to work it out.... Now, I just don't use trim.

 

I would be very happy if anyone knows how to sort this. I am using a PeterP style 2xmsffb2 cyclic mod,which is great, but I just cannot figure the settings out to sort this. I thought it was just me.

 

HELP! Please....

 

Have you guys swapped the FF axis in DCS? In controls menu select the joystick axis and hit FF tune. From there tick "swap axis". At least when using MSFFB-stick this is needed. Not sure about other sticks.

[molevitch]

I have tried all kinds of permutations, but I finally found a fix.... I am using the Simffb app by Average Pilot and finally worked out I have to turn off ffb in DCS. Hurrah!

[molevitch]

Average,

 

I might need your help on this ff problem. The joystick it self seem to work okey.. but when i hit the trim button the joystick pulls to anither direction mostly to the right under.

First ill try your utility and ill get back to you.

 

Hi Clyber, I was having this problem. I tried simffb, which is okay, but then I thought, hang on, I didn't go to all this trouble to have take do....

 

So I went back to my wiring of the bottom ffb unit. And guess what, I had made a mistake. I had reversed the wires on the motors, but had not swapped the motors. I found a diagram of PeterP's which illustrate it in his long version How to.

 

So check that, it's an easy mistake to fix.

[c0ff]

It doesn't really work that well with G940 mainly because there is a bug with the G940 and blackshark that when you press and hold the trim button it doesn't release any of the pressure (so you don't get the sloppy joystick feeling anyway) I was hoping this program would release the pressure but also apply a bit of dampening.

 

It sometimes makes the stick go crazy and move to a different coner every time you press the trim button.:joystick:

 

It is not your fault the trim dampening doesnt work as it is a bug between ED and the Logitech G940.

 

Indeed it is a quirk of the Logitech G940 driver, also happening with MS FFB2 under Win8.1.

We finally tracked down the issue. The fix is ready and after some testing will be submitted to 1.2.8

 

P.S. If you're interested in technical details, the mentioned drivers ignore "FFB stop" command until you do a "FFB SetParameters" call. The "stick going crazy after crash" bug, known among P-51D users comes from the same place.

[Dr_Arrow]

Indeed it is a quirk of the Logitech G940 driver, also happening with MS FFB2 under Win8.1.

We finally tracked down the issue. The fix is ready and after some testing will be submitted to 1.2.8

 

P.S. If you're interested in technical details, the mentioned drivers ignore "FFB stop" command until you do a "FFB SetParameters" call. The "stick going crazy after crash" bug, known among P-51D users comes from the same place.

 

I can't wait for this :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[c0ff]

I can't wait for this :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

Please, check 1.2.8.27529 (currently in OpenBeta)

[c0ff]

Nope. Just nailed it, finally, in the internal build.

Major thanks to average_pilot for sharing the simFFB source code.

[S-GERAT]

Hi guys,

 

Those days I'm trying to learn how to fly the KA-50, and I use the g940. I take a look to this thread and find there is a debate about how the trim and control system works on the real black shark. There is a tutorial for using average pilot ffb program, with the correct parameters, and the config of the controls inside dcs world ?

 

Regards and thanks in advance

[Scarecrow]

Nope. Just nailed it, finally, in the internal build.

Major thanks to average_pilot for sharing the simFFB source code.

 

Have you added the ability to set dampener and friction force effects? These effects add so much more depth than a simple spring effect:) If not would you please consider doing this in the future if possible?

[c0ff]

Have you added the ability to set dampener and friction force effects? These effects add so much more depth than a simple spring effect:) If not would you please consider doing this in the future if possible?

 

No.

This is requires a much bugger changes, from the low-level up to FMs of each aircraft.

And given the current market of FFB joysticks, it seems to be not worth the effort.

 

EDIT: bugger changes.. LOL. I meant, bigger, but let's read "bugger" as "having more bugs" )

Edited May 16, 2014 by c0ff

[Scarecrow]

No.

This is requires a much bugger changes, from the low-level up to FMs of each aircraft.

And given the current market of FFB joysticks, it seems to be not worth the effort.

 

Thank you very much for responding, I understand your point:)