golfsierra2 Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm "Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed." How is the ratio for the F15C in LO / FC ? Versus MiG29, SU27, SU33, if they use R77 ? kind regards, Raven.... [sigpic]http://www.crc-mindreader.de/CRT/images/Birds2011.gif[/sigpic] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 Why does it matter? The Su-27S and Su-33 have no R-77 capability PERIOD. The MiG-29S has a very limited capability of employing the R-77, and the 'simulation' doesn'tt ell us what parameters were used. I wouldn't put too much faith in it ;) I mean, doesn't it just SCREAM 'Buy F22'? ;) Look at it: Everything but the EF2000 (considered crappy by the countires forced to buy it) and the F22 are 1:1 at best, against a fighter that isn't going to be seeing service any time soon. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britgliderpilot Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 . . . . . . . you say the Typhoon is crappy?! This means War!! Oh, wait . . . . . no, you guys have the Raptor, that would be a bad idea, err . . . . Anyway, the Typhoon is still a rather impressive aircraft. Scratch that - a VERY impressive aircraft. The aircraft quoted in that article are far enough off any aircraft in Lomac to make it a complete waste of time trying to make a comparison :p http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug97 Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 Does anyone know of any more details about this simulation? I remember hearing something about this a long time ago, so I think it was probably run a while ago - not sure how they modelled the F-22 and EF-2000 back then. Also, the article doesn't mention what missiles the non-Russian aircraft were modelled with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazehound Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 I mean, doesn't it just SCREAM 'Buy F22'? ;) It does! But it might be better to buy 2 EFs instead of 1 raptor, or have a mixture. VVS504 Red Hammers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 Well, Raptors wouldn't operate alone ... they'll operate in conjunction with F-15, F-35, and F-16, as well as the superbug. They'd probably set up with the 'visibles' to draw the opposition one way or the other, then the Raptors would sneak in for an initial clobbering, and let the front-liners mop up the rest. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThomasDWeiss Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 6:1 for a Su-27 with 10 AAM against Random AI for a player with 1 wingman is my benchmark when making my missions. That gives you a 50% chance of surviving three dogfights with MRAAM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug11 Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 until ECCM is modelled AMRAAM's will not behave like they do so no comparison to real life is relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 LOL! And how would you model ECCM? If you haven't noticed, onlythe 'repeater' style of jamming is currently modelled for all jammers, while it is known quite well that Su-27 can do crosseyed Jamming (as can the F-15) fore xample. On the other hand, little is known about the ECCM measures that can be taken to defeat such jammers - many times we have speculated and argued about exact techniques, and in truth it's all too much to model. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug97 Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 little is known about the ECCM measures that can be taken to defeat such jammers - many times we have speculated and argued about exact techniques, and in truth it's all too much to model ... ... in a home PC game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 In just about anything if you don't know how it behaves. Period. Even the military sims might not be able to simulate any of this adequately - and I mean their flight sims, not dedicated RF system sims (and even those can be wildly off the mark) ;) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TucksonSonny Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Well, Raptors wouldn't operate alone ... they'll operate in conjunction with F-15, F-35, and F-16, as well as the superbug. They'd probably set up with the 'visibles' to draw the opposition one way or the other, then the Raptors would sneak in for an initial clobbering, and let the front-liners mop up the rest. The same you can say for the ef2000 or the su-30/35. Even with a 2:1 kill ratio for the f-22, typhoons can occasionally survive the fight and return home or engage another one (if you put 2 ef2000’s against each F22) Against the f-16/f-15 generation, typhoons can do the same job as the raptor for less than half the price. PS. How can you model the latest su-27/30 configuration or su-35 in whatever simulation if you don’t know shit about it? The same you can say for the f-22! DELL Intel® Core™ i7 Processor 940 2,93 GHz @3 GHz, 8 MB cache | 8.192 MB 1.067 MHz Tri Channel DDR3 | 512 MB ATI® Radeon™ 4850 | 500 GB 7200 rpm Serial ATA | Samsung SM 2693 HM 25.5 " | HOTAS Cougar Thrustmaster | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm "Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed." How is the ratio for the F15C in LO / FC ? Versus MiG29, SU27, SU33, if they use R77 ? In my opinion, those ratios mean nothing. How those british agencies would have had access to all the parameters involved in a combat scenario to realize a simulation ? Lots of things about the aircrafts involved are classified so they must have used a lot of approximations and well, a simulation is just a simulation. Most likely those ratios have been published to help the sales of Eurofighter while satisfying the ego of the countries who possessed them : "Look the F22 is the uberleetplane with a 10:1 ratio and which plane is the 2nd... surprise ! it is the Eurofighter which has a 4.5:1 ratio. OMG we are leet too !" ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug97 Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 In just about anything if you don't know how it behaves. Period. The military doesn't know how their own systems behave? Even the military sims might not be able to simulate any of this adequately - and I mean their flight sims, not dedicated RF system sims (and even those can be wildly off the mark) ;) Why not plug a dedicated RF system sim (hardware and software) into a flight sim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Sure, they could do that; I can see why and I can see why not. Either way, not an issue for us ;) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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