Interesting Info on Migs vs. AMRAAMs

[Guest IguanaKing]

Between the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, it is also important to remember that the two weapons had different cores, Hiroshima's "little boy" was a Uranium core weapon using gun-type detonation. Nagasaki's "fat man" had a Plutonium core and used implosion-type detonation. For this reason, the two detonations had different immediate effects, as well as different long-term effects.

[britgliderpilot]

As for the patriot, Im a bit off its latest developments. I Belive its still futher perfected to high altitude intercepts but IMHO its serves better as a pure SAM. Every user has donne this. Even the greeks deplyed such bateries during euro 2004.

 

. . . . To shoot down stray Beckham penalties? :p

[Pilotasso]

. . . . To shoot down stray Beckham penalties? :p

 

Ah sorrry not the euro BTW... it was the olympic games. :D

[Pilotasso]

Between the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, it is also important to remember that the two weapons had different cores, Hiroshima's "little boy" was a Uranium core weapon using gun-type detonation. Nagasaki's "fat man" had a Plutonium core and used implosion-type detonation. For this reason, the two detonations had different immediate effects, as well as different long-term effects.

 

It would also be even more important to read slower and not bypass important paragraphs. ;)

[Groove]

Nice and interesting thread.

 

About depleted uranium ammo. DU is cheaper than Tungsten rods. DU isnt that effective like Tungsten but there is enough of it and so its also cheaper to "recycle" it in the armies then to recycle it by a storage somewhere in your own country.

[Starlight]

. . . . To shoot down stray Beckham penalties? :p

 

It would have been a great waste of money... a Patriot missile costs millions of $, the ball used in that penalty was sold for some thousands pounds as a souvenir ;)

Don't know who paid such a crazy sum for simple ball.

[Groove]

Btw i dont think that there will be a perfect solution to intercept incoming ICBMs. Especially on the re-entry phase. This star-wars toys like the Laser 747 and this new ICMB Missile Shield is pure money burning imho.

[tomcat1974]

The Nagasaki didn't had same effect since it was launched using the radar and hit not in the center of the city.

[Raploc]

Nice and interesting thread.

 

About depleted uranium ammo. DU is cheaper than Tungsten rods. DU isnt that effective like Tungsten but there is enough of it and so its also cheaper to "recycle" it in the armies then to recycle it by a storage somewhere in your own country.

 

 

True DU is cheaper than tungsten, and it is actually more effective then tungsten. I've seen a very simple formula to calculate longrod armor penetration. If the rod contained DU, the outcome had to be multiplied by 1.15. You can find a ton of info on http://www.tank-net.org

 

 

Greetz

 

Raploc

[Guest IguanaKing]

It would also be even more important to read slower and not bypass important paragraphs. ;)

 

Wow! I really screwed that one up, didn't I. :icon_toil

[Groove]

True DU is cheaper than tungsten, and it is actually more effective then tungsten. I've seen a very simple formula to calculate longrod armor penetration. If the rod contained DU, the outcome had to be multiplied by 1.15. You can find a ton of info on http://www.tank-net.org

 

 

Greetz

 

Raploc

 

Hi Raploc,

 

i had once a pdf file which compared both - DU and Tungsten. It was made by some scienetists. They wrote that Tungsten is more effective. But i think its always a question which side is writing the articles. The DU users ( which of course must state that DU is more effective than Tungsten). Or the people which are against the use of DU...

[Raploc]

Hi Raploc,

 

i had once a pdf file which compared both - DU and Tungsten. It was made by some scienetists. They wrote that Tungsten is more effective. But i think its always a question which side is writing the articles. The DU users ( which of course must state that DU is more effective than Tungsten). Or the people which are against the use of DU...

 

 

 

Very interesting! Is there a website were I can download that PDF file? I'll try to find that formula and a paper on how HEAT rounds work. This paper also contained highspeed X-Ray stills of metal rods penetrating a sheet of metal. You can clearly see the "mushrooming" of the tip of the rod as it works its way through the metal. Here you can read a very interesting abstract on a researchpaper. http://www.stormingmedia.us/06/0644/A064443.html

 

 

*edit* found something but still no formula:

 

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-3753128097370/unrestricted/stevens.pdf

[Groove]

I can try to find the article but i cant promise anything as it was somewhere in the year 2004

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

wtf, this thread is still open ?

[Prophet_169th]

appears so.

[ESA_Mirmidon]

Well, sorry fo retake de origins of this thread, only answer me and all of you could return to this interesting conversation.

 

I have a question about TWS in the F-15 and his interaction with an ECM enviroment. Like the Mig29-S, you know if ECM is present, his "Semi TWS" cant operate, in the F-15 the TWS suffers the same restriction?

 

Well if i turn on the inboard ECm can the Eagle operate his TWS to engage me and fire a 120 without the launch warning in the RWR?

 

Thanks a lot for your replys and sorry for the distraction.

[GGTharos]

No, in fact, apaprently TWS is preffered in some ECM envoronments on the F-15.

[ESA_Mirmidon]

Well then it doesn´t matter the ECM is ON or OFF, a human F15 player employing TWS to launch a AIM-120 or a AIM-7 don´t cause a launch warning on my RWR.

 

From now i will keep the distance an fire depending on the radar signal strength, and be more agressive in my offensive tactics. (suppossing that EVERY enemy is a F-15 )

 

Thanks for the reply GG

[Prophet_169th]

Currently in the game, if an F15 locks you while you have ECM on, then you get a lock warning, this is supposed to be fixed in 1.11.

 

ECM has its use though. It doesnt allow the enemy to know your range, until burnthrough. Also, if an F15 locks onto a jamming "strobe" the radar goes to HOJ mode, which does not display other radar contacts.

 

You dont get a launch warning for different reasons though. With ECM on, you dont get a launch warning because of the HOJ mode the F15 uses.

 

In TWS you dont get a launch warning, because the radar/missle combo support tracking of target without going to STT. The only reason you get a lock warning from a radar, is because of the focus of the radar when in STT and the increase in energy projected at you.

 

FYI: An AIM-7 cant be launced from TWS. If you select a target from TWS with an AIM7 selected, it turns to STT.

[ESA_Mirmidon]

Thanks Prophet, thats was exactly the information that i need. Very usefull stuff.

 

I hope in the readme file of 1.11 we can obtain a mayor explication of this new BVR enviroment changes made.

[The Beast]

Thanks Prophet, thats was exactly the information that i need. Very usefull stuff.

 

I hope in the readme file of 1.11 we can obtain a mayor explication of this new BVR enviroment changes made.

 

 

ok im kinda new to the fc version as a matter of fact only been playing it a week so this might be a stuipd question but what bvr chages are they making and since i fly the -15 and havent spent much time in migs or sus what is there bvr capability

[BOPrey]

Currently in the game, if an F15 locks you while you have ECM on, then you get a lock warning, this is supposed to be fixed in 1.11.

 

ECM has its use though. It doesnt allow the enemy to know your range, until burnthrough. Also, if an F15 locks onto a jamming "strobe" the radar goes to HOJ mode, which does not display other radar contacts.

 

You dont get a launch warning for different reasons though. With ECM on, you dont get a launch warning because of the HOJ mode the F15 uses.

 

In TWS you dont get a launch warning, because the radar/missle combo support tracking of target without going to STT. The only reason you get a lock warning from a radar, is because of the focus of the radar when in STT and the increase in energy projected at you.

 

FYI: An AIM-7 cant be launced from TWS. If you select a target from TWS with an AIM7 selected, it turns to STT.

 

 

Isn't that in RL you will only get a launch warning when the 120's onboard radar goes active? In other situations, you just get a lock warning, and in the case of TWS or AIM-9, no warning at all.

[GGTharos]

More or less, the STT warning/no warning on AIM-120 missile launch is fuzzy.

[Orao]

A lto of peopel seem to think that Serbian MiGs could have evaded AMRAAMs easily if they had funcitoning RWRs ... well,a ccoridng to this .... :

 

 

From here:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-6123.html

 

Yugoslav pilot testimony that they were shot down from their interviews with the Yugoslav media:

 

24th March 1999.

 

Lieutenant Pilot Milorad Milutinovic

 

"...despite having indication that I was illuminated, and that a missile was speeding to me, not wasting a second, I fired a missile on the closest aggressor plane. I tried to avoid the missile with a sharp turn, taking forces the likes of which I have never felt before. Only a few seconds later a powerful explosion shook my plane.

 

I radioed that the plane was hit and that I'll do anything to save it. however, the stick wasn't responding. I tried it a few times, but all was in vain. The aircraft fell toward the earth at great speed. There was nothing else to do but to pull the eject handle."

 

Lieutenant colonel Dragan Ilic

(TJ note: Ilic's MiG-29 was hit by an AMRAAM but managed to land his damaged aircraft on an airfield.)

 

"I had the signal that I was locked on by an enemy missile. A fireball pushed the plane and the aircraft shook. The cockpit glazing cracked and fogged. I didn't feel any changes in engine performance and I was thinking how to save the plane. I pointed the plane to my home airfield at low speed, around Mach 0,5. All would have been different if the cracked glazing failed, I would have to had to eject and sacrifice the Mig."

 

 

Lieutenant Colonel Iljo Arizanov

 

"-Then a missile hit me in the rear part of the plane that threw itself to the left and spiraled to the ground. I could not control the plane anymore. I saw in my rear-view mirror that a fire erupted. I ejected. When the parachute opened, I heard the plane above me."

 

Major Pilot Nebojsa Nikolic

 

"he avoided the first missile with a skilled maneuver, but a whole fiery cloud of them streamed towards his Mig. he was hit once, twice, three times. Soon his cockpit was full of smoke....

 

In a haze he maneuvered, although he was losing altitude. His view clouded in the smoke. His controls served him a little while longer. He deserved this little luck meant for the brave. Then he listened to his instinct and pulled the eject handle."

 

TJ note: Nikolic's MiG-29 wreck photographs can be seen on Venik's site. The aircraft came down in Vojvodina. Venik has on his site that the aircraft was downed by the Dutch F-16. This is in error. The Dutch F-16 pilot downed his MiG-29 in the Kosovo region. The serial of the MiG-29 was 18111.

 

USAF pilot eye-witness acounts of the action on 24th March 1999:

 

Lt. Colonel Rodriguez, F-15C pilot, USAF- on the events of 24th March stated:

 

"We located a MiG-29 that was coming out of the Pristina airspace. There was some confusion between the controllers and our formation. The confusion arose from not having trained together and from a slight language barrier. I handed him (MiG-29) off to my wingman who a very young - his very first

combat mission - who goes by the name of 'Wild Bill'. I've got the MiG on my radarscope and we take the shot. We couldn't see very far because we're not equipped with night vision equipment, but when the MiG-29 exploded the large orange fireball erupted and illuminates the western mountains, lighting up the sky. The first blood had been drawn on night one!"

 

Details from Capt. Shower's interview on the events of 24th March:

 

"Capt. Mike Shower, flying an F-15C, was escorting the first of two strike packages - one package flew into southern Serbia while Shower's package went north over Belgrade. The strike packages were made up of 10 F-117s and two B-2 bombers with escort coming from a total of eight F-15Cs and F-16CJs. Approximately four minutes into the mission, Shower said they heard a "Splash one MiG-29" (a MiG-29 has been shot down) call from Airborne Warning and Control System from the south strike package. We got a little excited at that point since there was no doubt the Serbians were going to launch their aircraft. Six minutes into the mission, the Captain's radar picture was complicated by an unidentified aircraft taking off from Batajinica Airfield, a MiG-29 base in northern Belgrade.. The Captain said the final shot illuminated his aircraft from the rocket plume so the F-117 pilot could tell the two aircraft were approximately 2,000 feet from each other. The missile

went right across the front of his aircraft down to the MiG-29 which blew up about 7,000 feet underneath the F-117. The MiG-29 crashed within 25 nautical miles of Batajnica Airfield."

 

 

HI there,

 

Nice text you've found but a very large amount of data is missing.

 

1. We don't know the exact tactical situation

 

2. What were the launch parameters for AMRAAMs ?

 

3. The yugoslavian hardware was jammed with a lot efficiency during conflict. Yugoslavian Air Force had exactly the same Mig-29A as German Air Force. Electronic warfare was one of aspect of that war too.

 

4. What pieces of hardware were operational on Migs ? Major drawback of Mig's electronics is a time of functioning after which you need to change parts. Spare parts were legally impossible to have because of UN sanctions.

 

5. Finally how many NATO planes engaged a single Mig at same time ?

 

Even in Lockon if you dodge the first missile you have 80 % of chance to be hit by the second incoming missile.

 

Cheers.

[D-Scythe]

HI there,

 

Nice text you've found but a very large amount of data is missing.

 

1. We don't know the exact tactical situation

 

2. What were the launch parameters for AMRAAMs ?

 

3. The yugoslavian hardware was jammed with a lot efficiency during conflict. Yugoslavian Air Force had exactly the same Mig-29A as German Air Force. Electronic warfare was one of aspect of that war too.

 

4. What pieces of hardware were operational on Migs ? Major drawback of Mig's electronics is a time of functioning after which you need to change parts. Spare parts were legally impossible to have because of UN sanctions.

 

5. Finally how many NATO planes engaged a single Mig at same time ?

 

Even in Lockon if you dodge the first missile you have 80 % of chance to be hit by the second incoming missile.

 

Cheers.

 

Two words: who cares? Any decent F-15 pilot with AIM-120 will virtually always beat a MiG-29A with R-27s anyway.