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Interesting Info on Migs vs. AMRAAMs


GGTharos

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Guest IguanaKing
Isn't that in RL you will only get a launch warning when the 120's onboard radar goes active? In other situations, you just get a lock warning, and in the case of TWS or AIM-9, no warning at all.

 

During the first phase of flight, the AIM-120 relies on both a data-link with the launch platform and inertial guidance, so I would think that a targeted launch would produce a launch warning.

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During the first phase of flight, the AIM-120 relies on both a data-link with the launch platform and inertial guidance, so I would think that a targeted launch would produce a launch warning.

 

Now tell me how a RWR works again :icon_roll . When the 120 is in its first phase of flight, and if the radar guiding the missile is in STT mode, you will get a LOCK warning. No warning in TWS mode. If you say otherwise, then show me how a RWR distinguishes a radar LOCK from a radar LOCK follew by LAUNCH. :rolleyes:

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Two things.

 

FIrst, and probably obvious, there's the datalink. However, datalinks are probably not the easiest things to detect or properly correlate.

 

Second, when a missile is launched in STT, the radar changes the emitted waveform, which is typically a dead give-away for launch.

 

When in TWS, even if y ou detect the datalink, it's rather hard to know it it's coming at you or someone else. Theoretically you could default to launch warning, but the (probably) large amount of false positives would probably confuse the pilots, and the RWR would then get ignored.

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Guest IguanaKing
Now tell me how a RWR works again :icon_roll . When the 120 is in its first phase of flight, and if the radar guiding the missile is in STT mode, you will get a LOCK warning. No warning in TWS mode. If you say otherwise, then show me how a RWR distinguishes a radar LOCK from a radar LOCK follew by LAUNCH. :rolleyes:

 

Ever hear of phase shift? :p

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Guest IguanaKing
Two things.

 

FIrst, and probably obvious, there's the datalink. However, datalinks are probably not the easiest things to detect or properly correlate.

 

Second, when a missile is launched in STT, the radar changes the emitted waveform, which is typically a dead give-away for launch.

 

When in TWS, even if y ou detect the datalink, it's rather hard to know it it's coming at you or someone else. Theoretically you could default to launch warning, but the (probably) large amount of false positives would probably confuse the pilots, and the RWR would then get ignored.

 

Its not the data-link that is picked up, it has more to do with the reason for the data-link in the first place...the launch platform's radar. ;)

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Guest IguanaKing

Heh...all of the EW aircraft would have to be fitted with a wire cutter like you see on helicopters. :D Down at lower altitudes...those poor birds. Hehe...not that they'd be likely to survive all of that high-power microwave RF going through them in a huge, modern air battle. ;)

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SwingKid and I were having a discussion about RWRs and we basically concluded that they might not be quite as reliable as is assumed ... ie. they are capable of missing signals, or signals can be ambiguous, etcetc.

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Guest IguanaKing
Why not. These days, you can order a roll of fiberoptic on the internet.

 

Seriousely, if RWRs detect missile launch by the data-link, I can think of several ways that scare the hell of those pilots. ;)

 

Oh...oops...I guess we had a misunderstanding there. Like GG said, detecting the data-link with the RWR is unlikely. This is true. The RWR is more likely to detect the change in radar emissions required for a targeted launch. Phase shift, different types of pulses being present on the pulse train, etc. Now...don't get me wrong, the AIM-120 can be guided via data-link from other aircraft, which would produce no launch warning from the launch platform. However, if Command Inertial is linked to the launch platform, it will give a launch warning. I don't think the AIM-120 was ever intended as a "no-warning" weapon, its capabilities are more about letting the launch aircraft get the hell outta there shortly after launching, rather than having to eyeball the missile all the way to its target.

 

Yes, RWRs are definitely not infallible, they can miss things that are there, and they can give false indications...its the nature of the beast.

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What are the chances of leting the AWACS taking over the guiding of the missile after it's launched?

 

However, if Command Inertial is linked to the launch platform, it will give a launch warning.

 

Is this also due to the change in characteristic of radar signal received?

 

Yes, RWRs are definitely not infallible, they can miss things that are there, and they can give false indications...its the nature of the beast.

 

A few years a go, the US secret service showed case a system such that it can pin point the exact location of a sniper by just listening to the sound created by the turbulence of a flying bullet. Don't know if a warning system based on a simular principle can be developed.

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Guest IguanaKing
What are the chances of leting the AWACS taking over the guiding of the missile after it's launched?

 

Better than average. ;) It is rumored, and highly possible, that AWACS TADL capabilities could be used to guide a missile without emissions from the launch aircraft. But, the problem is that the exact capabilities of TADL and all of its modes are a closely-guarded secret...so all we can do is guess.

 

 

 

Is this also due to the change in characteristic of radar signal received?

 

Yes. There are all kinds of changes that are possible with a radar signal depending on what its current function is. Phase shift, increase/decrease in PRF, increase/decrease of power, presence/absence of pulses on the pulse train...all kinds of different variables that an RWR looks for.

 

 

 

A few years a go, the US secret service showed case a system such that it can pin point the exact location of a sniper by just listening to the sound created by the turbulence of a flying bullet. Don't know if a warning system based on a simular principle can be developed.

 

Very possible also. If there were a way to determine the bearing and course of a missile in flight, a pitbull shot could be fired down that bearing with a reasonable PK. Just theories though...based on submarine tactics. ;)

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Hi again,

 

Concerning the datalink. It's encrypted numerical signal (+5V 0V) and tehre is no way that the RWR could know that the missile is for its plane before Aim-120 goes active.

 

Just to recall something here. A RWR is made out of an antenna network set over the plane. Those antennas are receiving the radio signal and onboard computer is interpreting the received signal.

 

Now cocnernig datalink being taken over by AWACS. Such missile exists allready and is called METEOR. New european advanced BVR missile. It's made for use on Eurofighter and on Rafale. Once the missile is launched the datalink is sent by either the attacking plane or by the AWACS.

 

As for D-Scythe

 

Sorry dude but the point of this topic wasn't if the R-27 is better than AIM-120 but do we get in RL a RWR signal when the missile is launched in TWS mode.

 

Mig-29A is a crapy plane we all know that. It's a F-16 in its early version Block 32.

 

On my last point I tryed to get an idea about real efficiency of Aim-120. All we know is that Migs got downed by Aim-120. Ok fine, but how many kills for how many launches on manoeuvering target. In other words what was the kill/launch ratio ?

 

So chill it out will yea ?

 

Thx.

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Now cocnernig datalink being taken over by AWACS. Such missile exists allready and is called METEOR. New european advanced BVR missile. It's made for use on Eurofighter and on Rafale. Once the missile is launched the datalink is sent by either the attacking plane or by the AWACS.

 

Is it that the European AWACS use the newer phase array radar, so it can do much more than its rotating counter part on US AWACS? Because AFAIK, the US doesn't have a METEOR equivalent (I could be wrong).

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US AWACS also uses pahsed array antenna.

 

No AWACS guides missiles; the parent aircraft only does so, with data they receive from AWACS on their datalink, but it's never directly the awacs that does the guiding.

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Taken from this site : http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/bvraam.htm on Meteor and no, the US have no such missile yet in its arsenal but I think that something similar will be either bought or developped for F-22.

 

A single fighter, equipped with an operational load of BVRAAM missiles, has the potential to destroy even the most maneuvrable of fighters well before they reach combat range, and simultaneously engage bombers at long range. Targets are prioritised prior to launch, and the missiles are fired towards the predicted interception points. Meanwhile target information can be updated, via the data-link, throughout the initial flight - either from the launch aircraft or from a third party such as AWACs. Tactical information on the missile can also be received by the controlling aircraft. At the appropriate time, BVRAAM’s active radar seeker autonomously searches for and locks onto the target. The missile is now fully autonomous, making its own decisions to home in on the target, despite any evasive manoeuvres, or decoys or sophisticated electronic countermeasures.

 

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Guest IguanaKing
Hi again,

 

Concerning the datalink. It's encrypted numerical signal (+5V 0V) and tehre is no way that the RWR could know that the missile is for its plane before Aim-120 goes active.

 

Just to recall something here. A RWR is made out of an antenna network set over the plane. Those antennas are receiving the radio signal and onboard computer is interpreting the received signal.

 

Now cocnernig datalink being taken over by AWACS. Such missile exists allready and is called METEOR. New european advanced BVR missile. It's made for use on Eurofighter and on Rafale. Once the missile is launched the datalink is sent by either the attacking plane or by the AWACS.

 

As for D-Scythe

 

Sorry dude but the point of this topic wasn't if the R-27 is better than AIM-120 but do we get in RL a RWR signal when the missile is launched in TWS mode.

 

Mig-29A is a crapy plane we all know that. It's a F-16 in its early version Block 32.

 

On my last point I tryed to get an idea about real efficiency of Aim-120. All we know is that Migs got downed by Aim-120. Ok fine, but how many kills for how many launches on manoeuvering target. In other words what was the kill/launch ratio ?

 

So chill it out will yea ?

 

Thx.

 

The RWR system is not that simple and neither are radar signals. Also, exact capabilities of AEW&C platforms regarding TADL capabilities are classified information, so nobody here can say with any certainty what missile can and can't do what in that area...and if anybody here knew that information first-hand, they certainly wouldn't talk about it here. ;)

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In service date for BVRAAM Meteor is 2011 maybe (50% confidence).

 

Source: http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/common/AA/bvraam.html

 

So in my experience of big defence contracts that will mean 2015, so I think it best to ignore Meteor in this thread (at least for the next 10 years)....

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Taken from this site : http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/bvraam.htm on Meteor and no, the US have no such missile yet in its arsenal but I think that something similar will be either bought or developped for F-22.

 

The US had a ramjet version of the AMRAAM for its own long range AA missile, it got canceled. Or at least shelved. It wouldnt fit in an F-22 just like the meteor wouldnt. Chances are they will only ressurect the program if they ever feel the need for it. Of course when I say "need" its only a relative perspective of viewing the things.

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Hi all.

 

A single fighter, equipped with an operational load of BVRAAM missiles, has the potential to destroy even the most maneuvrable of fighters well before they reach combat range, and simultaneously engage bombers at long range. Targets are prioritised prior to launch, and the missiles are fired towards the predicted interception points. Meanwhile target information can be updated, via the data-link, throughout the initial flight - either from the launch aircraft or from a third party such as AWACs. Tactical information on the missile can also be received by the controlling aircraft. At the appropriate time, BVRAAM’s active radar seeker autonomously searches for and locks onto the target. The missile is now fully autonomous, making its own decisions to home in on the target, despite any evasive manoeuvres, or decoys or sophisticated electronic countermeasures.

 

Now when I read this I first think it takes technology from the AIM-54 Phoenix. The problem there is that the Phoenix was not very effective for engaging fighters. Later in the article it mentions using RAMJET. I mention this for the following reasons.

 

We are discussing this in the context of a "perfect A2A missile". It will be fast, have active radar for accuracy, and be small enough so that it can be used on many platforms.

 

The problems. I am not sure of missile sizes, but the AIM-54 is probably the largest A2A missile in service, correct? The F-14 is probably the largest fighter in service, correct? Now they are going to add RAMJET tech to something like that? IIRC, NASA tested a RAMJET last year. IIRC that thing was strapped to the wing of a B-52.

 

So how can a missile that holds all that capability, engineneered down to a size of what, say the size of a AIM-7, be cost effective? How much did an AIM-54 cost? How much will the system that launches that thing cost? Now mutiply that by what, say 6-8 of those babies to the jet that can use them. Orao is right, they are going to want that missile inside the F-22. I have no idea what a F-22 cost, but if it gets shot down or crashes(which does/will happen) you can just watch you national dept shoot through the roof.

 

I agree with B_R_D & Pilotasso. There is probably a limit to A2A missiles. You may be able to improve on a current system, like they did for the AIM-9x. Will there ever be the perfect missile?

 

Maybe it's time to start arming jets with LASERS. :icon_roll . You won't be able to spoof it. All you will need is positive ID from an AWACS/JSTAR.

 

-KILSEK

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Ramjet driven missiles exhist for quite some while (look at the kh-31 for example), you're confusing ramjet technology (good from Mach 2 up to Mach 5) and supersonic combustion ramjet, scramjet, good from Mach 6 up until Mach 20!

 

The real problem, besides the costs, is the size of such missile, because it needs to have both a ramjet and a solid rocket engine to propel it to a high speed in order to make the ramjet work properly. They could end up with something the size of the Aim-56 or Kh-31.

Oh, it is beleived the Russians have a A-A missile based on the kh-31 to deal with enemy AWACS (like an agm-88, but for aerial targets), the range of which is around 350 km, so ramjet technology does make ultra long range missiles viable, but also the problem of efficient control surfaces will arise, as at such high speeds, the missile would be sluggish (and due to its bigger mass). So such missile would only work against non-manoeuvering or bulky targets.

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Now if they can mini-size the lazer enough to make that idea realistic enough. The power wattage for a laser powerful enough to destroy an aircraft BVR would probably need its own nuclear reactor for the amount of power to do such a thing. not to mention a mirror small but sharp enough in detail to see the target.

 

Why am I just NOW thinking of the Aerial Hunter-Killers from the Terminator series??? Ok I am a terminator nerd...eat me.

 

http://www.goingfaster.com/term2029/aerial300.html

 

http://www.goingfaster.com/term2029/vtoltech.html

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Hi all.

 

 

 

Now when I read this I first think it takes technology from the AIM-54 Phoenix. The problem there is that the Phoenix was not very effective for engaging fighters. Later in the article it mentions using RAMJET. I mention this for the following reasons.

 

We are discussing this in the context of a "perfect A2A missile". It will be fast, have active radar for accuracy, and be small enough so that it can be used on many platforms.

 

The problems. I am not sure of missile sizes, but the AIM-54 is probably the largest A2A missile in service, correct? The F-14 is probably the largest fighter in service, correct? Now they are going to add RAMJET tech to something like that? IIRC, NASA tested a RAMJET last year. IIRC that thing was strapped to the wing of a B-52.

 

So how can a missile that holds all that capability, engineneered down to a size of what, say the size of a AIM-7, be cost effective? How much did an AIM-54 cost? How much will the system that launches that thing cost? Now mutiply that by what, say 6-8 of those babies to the jet that can use them. Orao is right, they are going to want that missile inside the F-22. I have no idea what a F-22 cost, but if it gets shot down or crashes(which does/will happen) you can just watch you national dept shoot through the roof.

 

I agree with B_R_D & Pilotasso. There is probably a limit to A2A missiles. You may be able to improve on a current system, like they did for the AIM-9x. Will there ever be the perfect missile?

 

Maybe it's time to start arming jets with LASERS. :icon_roll . You won't be able to spoof it. All you will need is positive ID from an AWACS/JSTAR.

 

-KILSEK

 

 

Meteror is designed to fit on Eurofighter and Rafale. Rafale is a small plane compared to other planes so I don't think that in size Meteor will be as big as AIM-54. It would be rather comparable to the size of the AMRAAM.

 

Don't forget that AIM-54 was developed in 70 and the electronics inside are huge. With today modern technology electronics will take less place inside the missile. Therefor more place will be offered to the fuel and to the warhead.

 

Moreover ramjet dosen't have boosters so more place is gained.

 

For guys who want to know the basics of ramjet propulsion here is the link :

 

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/ramth.html

 

P.S.

 

AIM-54 was built only for one thing. Destruction of Soviet bombers which would attack the fleet. Phoenix missiles were not built for high manoeuvering targets such as fighters.

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