Interesting Info on Migs vs. AMRAAMs

[GGTharos]

Actually, they were re-designed to intercept high-maneuverability targets such as fighters.

 

That would be the version that is commonly known as the 'AIM-54C' which was widely deployed.

 

The additional SEALED/ECCM upgrade to the C version made the 54 into a frightening, BVR AMRAAM.

 

It isn't a missile you'd want tracking you.

[tflash]

MBDA plans to offer meteor for F-35 also ...

 

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article1378.html

[Guest IguanaKing]

 

AIM-54 was built only for one thing. Destruction of Soviet bombers which would attack the fleet. Phoenix missiles were not built for high manoeuvering targets such as fighters.

 

Yes, it was built for that purpose, but it was also designed as a vampire killer. It was designed to shoot down cruise missiles launched by those bombers, which is one of the reasons the radar was made to engage several targets simultaneously. BTW...the IRIAF had a fair amount of success using AIM-54s against fighters.

[Tracker]

Interesting documentation. Thanx for the research.

 

Without looking deeper than what you have provided it appears the Mig pilots under estimated (most likely because of the 117 stealth) the actual magnitude of danger. In these scenarios they most likely scrambled in an attempt to deter the incoming offensive and were most likely (with working RWR) aware of AWACS even before take off. Differentiating between the F15 radar paint and the AWACS paint would require heads down attention ( I always thought the RWR should be next to instead of below the MFD in the MIG) since AFIK the tones are the same. What we don't know is the mode that "Wild Bill" used for releasing his AMMRAM. Nor do we know at what distance he finally locked (possibly after having fired the missile) the incoming MIG because of the radio delays. But two things are certain in this case: 1. The MIG pilot(s) underestimated the available time they had before going defensive (and its odd that their personal accounts do not mention any counter measures) 2. Do to poor training the "safety envelope" was stretched forcing 'Wild Bill' and the F117 pilot to engage.

 

Had the comms been better the F15's could have F-Pole'd the MIG and gave him the opportunity to retreat rather pressing (anyone know if that mig was packing '77's?). In most cases a show of force and an offcenter path adjustment is sufficient to send a lone pilot back for reinforcements. Additionally, had the 'First Blood' not been drawn (even if it was Hydraulic Fluid :D) it may have averted the pop up that the F117 had to take out.

 

I'm glad the pilots lived to tell the stories :)

[D-Scythe]

Actually, they were re-designed to intercept high-maneuverability targets such as fighters.

 

That would be the version that is commonly known as the 'AIM-54C' which was widely deployed.

 

The additional SEALED/ECCM upgrade to the C version made the 54 into a frightening, BVR AMRAAM.

 

It isn't a missile you'd want tracking you.

 

...but still completely out-manueverable if you see it coming. Plus, the difficulty of missile kills increase exponentially as range increases, as the target has many more options (kinematically) for evasion.

[GGTharos]

Correct. That's why TWS - if you're in the target 'basket' when the missile goes active, you're screwed. If you figure out there's a missile coming your way and you move out of the basket, you've spoiled the shot most likely.

 

But as fas at out-maneuverable goes, I wouldn't think so. This thing is either a) coming in head-on high energy, in which case it can out-g you easily,

 

b) coming down from quite a bit of altitude, in which case if may be coming in over your RWR limits and it's not a very likely place for you to look at - it also immediately denies you the vertical axis for maneuvering (vertical maneuvers don't affect its energy)

 

c) the warhead's so big that it doesn't really need to hit you. AMRAAM 'hit' is considered to be within 5m of the target (10m for the fuze itself is what I've heard quoted). THe Phoenix is probably close to 10 or 15m - if it gets that close, you go boom.

[BOPrey]

AMRAAM 'hit' is considered to be within 5m of the target (10m for the fuze itself is what I've heard quoted). THe Phoenix is probably close to 10 or 15m - if it gets that close, you go boom.

 

Wow, that's close. I wonder if there are no proximity fuse, what the kill rates will be for the missiles.

[Orao]

1. The MIG pilot(s) underestimated the available time they had before going defensive (and its odd that their personal accounts do not mention any counter measures) 2. Do to poor training the "safety envelope" was stretched forcing 'Wild Bill' and the F117 pilot to engage.

 

Had the comms been better the F15's could have F-Pole'd the MIG and gave him the opportunity to retreat rather pressing (anyone know if that mig was packing '77's?). In most cases a show of force and an offcenter path adjustment is sufficient to send a lone pilot back for reinforcements. Additionally, had the 'First Blood' not been drawn (even if it was Hydraulic Fluid ) it may have averted the pop up that the F117 had to take out.

 

I'm glad the pilots lived to tell the stories [/Quote]

 

1. Counter measure launchers were not delivered with Mig-29A. The resaon Yougoslavia got that plane was the debt payment of the URSSS. Moreover the Mig-29A was used as a model for the first Yougoslavian supersonic fighter which was never built due to the civil war. All Mig-21 and 29 were planed to be replaced with L-18 (the official designation of new supersonic fighter).

 

Only one squadron was equiped with Mig-29A in entire Yougoslavia.

 

2. There is something you don't take into account here. Human psychology and the culture. In Yougoslavia it's the bigest shame to retreat before the ennemy or to say that you put your tail between your legs and turned away without even figthing.

"Cowards" are not very well seen there even if that means certain death for the person who is involved.

 

I think that this will explain you much better why Migs were scrambled eventhough all odds were against them where as during Desert Storm Iraq has sent his planes to Iran. Even during WW2 active combat against Germans was going on while in the rest of occupied Europe they were waiting for liberation.

 

But all this is off topic so I'll not continue on this matter any more. Sorry GGTharos.

[tflash]

Maybe it's time to start arming jets with LASERS. :icon_roll . You won't be able to spoof it. All you will need is positive ID from an AWACS/JSTAR.

 

-KILSEK

 

Well, though it is a good idea, it isn't exactly "time" for it: currently, the COIL airborne laser in the YAL-1 Boeing 747 designed to intercept ICBM's has the required performance, but seems to me to be still a little heavy to be mounted in a fighter aircraft.

 

It could take decades to develop something miniaturised enough to compete with current A-A missiles and avionics.

[GGTharos]

It's also a little silly in concept of operation: It's supposed to shoot the ICBM's down in the boost phase, from 50 miles away. I don't know how it would get within 50 miles of a launch site without taking a big SAM or AAM in the face.

[BOPrey]

The assumsion is that after you kill all the enemy defences, they are so desperate to lauch their ICBMs. Should it be the other around? LoL.

[GGTharos]

I don't see how they can assume they'll get such a plane in range on time though :P

[BOPrey]

I don't see how they can assume they'll get such a plane in range on time though :P

 

Well, we have the F-22. What about stealthy Boeing 747s? We can deploy hundreds or thousands of them in enemy territories and they can't even be seen by radar. :rolleyes: Oh, wait, they could be spotted by airline pilots. :p

[Pilotasso]

It's also a little silly in concept of operation: It's supposed to shoot the ICBM's down in the boost phase, from 50 miles away. I don't know how it would get within 50 miles of a launch site without taking a big SAM or AAM in the face.

 

If the missile is in the high atmosphere I doubt the range is just 50 miles. In thin atmosphere laser goes through very easely. The question is not range but rather when the US will ever know where to place 1 ABL in the right time, because there wont be that many to place them all in patrolls "just-in-case".

[GGTharos]

The concept sees the missile target before it gets high; if it does you easily lose it.

 

In addition, the beam can attenuate in empty space, it's just laws of physics: The diameter of the beam will increase with distance.

[schimmel]

What's the actual advantage of a laser to a radar beam? Is there no ECM for lasers? I mean, light is only an electro-magnectic wave, just as radar waves. So couldn't you fool a laser beam with f.ex. a very bright light source with nearly the same wave length? Or making a plane with a reflecting hull :D? Just guessing here...

 

EDIT: Btw... laser light does not attenuate in empty space. That's its advantage to a normal light source, since it radiates only in 1 direction. The increase of the diameter is only a result of the atmosphere. In empty space, they can direct a laser beam from a satellite to the moon's surface with nearly a constant diameter.

[Force_Feedback]

Unless the missile looks back at the source of the emission

[GGTharos]

What's the actual advantage of a laser to a radar beam? Is there no ECM for lasers? I mean, light is only an electro-magnectic wave, just as radar waves. So couldn't you fool a laser beam with f.ex. a very bright light source with nearly the same wave length? Or making a plane with a reflecting hull :D? Just guessing here...

 

Right...what are you talking about?

No, there's currently no ECM for lasers ;)

The laser mentioned here is used to shoot things down, not to detect things.

 

EDIT: Btw... laser light does not attenuate in empty space. That's its advantage to a normal light source, since it radiates only in 1 direction. The increase of the diameter is only a result of the atmosphere. In empty space, they can direct a laser beam from a satellite to the moon's surface with nearly a constant diameter.

 

Last time I picked up a physics book, attentuation was related to the width of the aperture, not atmosphere: atmosphere just accelerates the effect through scattering and absorption, but the effect is there no matter what you do. Simple quantum physics. I'll even look up the math for the calculation sometime today if you like (Maybe I'll even prove myself wrong, but whatever! It's always fun ;) )

 

Edit: Here ya go

http://www.rp-photonics.com/beam_divergence.html

 

 

Edit 2: You're right, at 50km in space that beam (assuming IR wavelength of 1064nm, and initial beam width of 1m) will only spread about 1.6cm in radius. It obviously suffers much more in atmosphere, wether you're shooting up or down won't change the range a huge load, you still have a lot of stuff to go through.

 

As far as shooting at the moon though, you were wrong ;) The beam will spread over twice its radius if you use the same characteristics.

[schimmel]

Very interesting! I've never done laser from a quantum physics perspective. My bad :).

 

This moon laser beam I talked about is referred to the mirror which was placed on the moon during the Apollo 11 mission to calculate the distance between the moon and the earth. For those interested: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/expmoon/Apollo11/A11_Experiments_LRRR.html. But you are right. It does spread over several kilometers. This was unknown to me though.

 

Well what I was talking about... some ppl suggested here to use laser beams for a A2A or G2A targeting method. This sounds weird to me. What is the advantage of using lasers there? They can also be fooled and it's even harder to keep it on the target.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Heh...I could see the Air Forces of the world going back to the old polished aluminum fuselage. It would increase survivability against lasers. :D As far as a countermeasure, its not as much about fooling the beam of the laser, so much as it would be to fool the other equipment that is used to direct the laser. ;)

[The Beast]

Well what I was talking about... some ppl suggested here to use laser beams for a A2A or G2A targeting method. This sounds weird to me. What is the advantage of using lasers there? They can also be fooled and it's even harder to keep it on the target.

 

 

i do belive the advantage they are going for is its more accurate therefore less deaths

[GGTharos]

... Just a lot more blind people instead.

[kickass]

hi

 

Im sure that Balcan area could be better idea for LockOn!

[Cobra360]

Lasers could be on fighters from 2015.

 

http://www.cndyorks.gn.apc.org/news/articles/harmfromlaserfighter.htm

 

DARPA also report they are nearly finished on a laser that is the size of a large fridge and can be fitted anywhere a 2,000lbs class bomb can be fitted on fighters.

 

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/mech-tech/mg18725146.400

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yikes! :rolleyes: A 100 kW IR laser would do FAR more than just blind somebody. Its funny that the article only seems to talk about blinding, even though the function of the human retina is not sensitive to IR wavelengths. Its cells however, are sensitive to wavelengths such as IR, so an IR laser of that magnitude will not only fry your eyeballs but everything around them as well. The problem with lower frequencies, such as IR, is that they don't penetrate well through things such as water vapor, so they'd be severely limited by clouds and fog. UV, on the other hand, would penetrate just about any environmental condition, but its only use would be against personnel, since UV has almost no immediate effect on equipment.