A/A combat: No hope for me?? need urgent help

[Kevlon]

Well I tried and tried and tried again... again lol :D My performance have improved a lot!! I have now a 3-1 kills but positive!! Specially against F-15 and F-16, don't know why, but I always lost lock on the F-18C ( anyone know why?? ) I gain altitude and release my missiles, first a ER 4 or 5 seconds later another. normally the missiles fail ( don't know why cause I retain lock on the target ). after shot the missiles I slow down a lot but try to retain altitude ( have to try to turn yet ) and then release a R-27ET, normally one If not both of the targets are killed.

What I think that is very effective is wait that the AIM-120 is at 1.5-2km and then put my plane in vertical releaseing lots of flares, missiles often pass under my plane without killing me, but is hard to get the correct time. Please keep the tips coming I want to improve my performance a lot more!!

 

If you loose your lock shortly after you launch, that dosent mean the misile is toaly wasted, if you can re-acvire your lock, the missile will again start to track target.

[GGTharos]

In 1.1, yes. In 1.11 this changes and becomes highly dependant on the missile's guidance mode at the time as well as target location with respect to where missile's seeker is looking.

[Alfa]

The R27ETs range is limited by the seeker. Its a heat-seeking version of the R27 missile, but it doesn't have an in-flight datalink . . . . as such, the missile needs to lock on to the target before you fire it.

 

Correct.

 

You hence have a situation where the kinetic range of the missile is much greater than the range at which it can be fired.

 

Not necessarily because....

 

This isn't entirely useless ( ;) ) - apparently the intended purpose of the R27ET was to chase down a fighter thats running away from the fight. It might only be ten kilometres away, but it might be going supersonic . . . . . if its moving at the same speed as you are, your radar can't get a lock (see pulse-doppler radar theory), obviously a normal dogfight missile can't chase it down - enter the R27ET.

 

Yes thats right, but it is not just that a "radar homer" can loose lock if the target is moving away from it at the same speed - radars are generally much less effective against a retreating target, so even if they arent "notched", the range at which they can acquire the target is much lower than against a target that moves towards it.....the faster it moves towards it the more "juicy" the radar returns, the faster it moves away from it the more faint returns - thus shorter acquisition range.

 

For an IR homing head the exact opposite is the case - i.e. while the IR homing head restricts the engagement range of an R-27TE to some 10-15 km head-on because the heat emmission is somewhat concealed behind the target´s airframe, it could easily be twice that in a tail chase where the IR seeker has a direct "line of sight" to the target´s hot engine exhausts - and the more engine power the target aircraft deploys to try and escape, the more heat it is bound to generate - i.e. the more "juicy" a target it becomes.

 

One tactic used by supersonic bombers when encountering enemy fighters, is to turn tail and power away at full AFB to take advantage of the decreased effectiveness of a radar homing missile against a retreating target - this in turn makes them a fat juicy target for an IR seeker....only problem being that most IR seekers are mounted on puny little missiles which cannot take advantage of this because they will "run out of steam" before they can catch up with the target.......enter R-27TE(as you say), which combines the IR head with a monster rocket engine :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[britgliderpilot]

Alfa is of course right ;)

 

Thanks for clarifying.

[S77th-GOYA]

I've read posts saying that the ET is not a fire and forget missle. Was this for an older version of LOMAC or just wrong? It would seem that a radar lock is of no use in utilizing an ET. The past posts said that a radar lock must be maintained until the seeker achieves a lock. Untrue now/ever?

[Gazehound]

I've read posts saying that the ET is not a fire and forget missle. Was this for an older version of LOMAC or just wrong? It would seem that a radar lock is of no use in utilizing an ET. The past posts said that a radar lock must be maintained until the seeker achieves a lock. Untrue now/ever?

I think you used to be able to launch an ET just with radar lock in 1.02, but now you need a IR lock to fire. I dont know if there is any benefit in maintaining a lock now but I doubt it - its just a big heater.

[192nd_Erdem]

Yep,It was modelled uncorrectly until 1.1 arrived.In 1.02 ET can be guided via radar in BVR mode which was unrealistic and corrected.

[Alfa]

Alfa is of course right ;)

 

I really like the "of course" bit..... :biggrin:

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Alfa]

I've read posts saying that the ET is not a fire and forget missle. Was this for an older version of LOMAC or just wrong? It would seem that a radar lock is of no use in utilizing an ET. The past posts said that a radar lock must be maintained until the seeker achieves a lock. Untrue now/ever?

 

Untrue now :)

 

Earlier on it was believed(myself included) that the R-27TE would employ a datalink for midcourse guidance in a head-on engagement - i.e. to take advantage of the potential launch range provided by the long burn R-27E missile body while being far outside IR seeker acquisition range.

 

Initially the R-27TE was modelled that way, and thus required the use of radar to provide the midcourse guidance. But it later became clear that the R-27TE doesnt have a datalink, but was designed specifically for rear aspect engagements such as the one I described in my previous post. So the datalink was removed and the missile now requires an IR lock before launch, which means that its fully "fire & forget" and its range against a head-on target is reduced to that obtainable by its IR seeker.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Pilotasso]

Well, I just stated that F-15 AI is easy to defeat because it shoots 1 missile! And human F-15 pilots usually win because it shoots more then one missile!

 

In other words, human F-15 pilots uses F-15 advatage of having more active missiles! What is wrong with that statement?

 

F-15 is technologicaly more advanced then Su-27! End of story!

 

I don't know how active radar missiles work in real life and therefore I can not say if they are modeled corectly or not in Lock On.

 

Im sorry to reply this late. There seems we had a language barrier here. In the last few days I seen a bit of nonsense on these forums regarding nationalistic feelings that translate into farfetched aircraft (or pilot) perfomance speculations. Your previous post looked like one at first glance, that is why I left a rant with a smilie at the end as a hint.

 

Its cool man. Some times I just like to be a bit provocative, not with bad intentions. Its liberating. :D

[suntrace1]

Serbia, Serbia, Montenegro, Montenegro

 

lol

[Stratos]

Hey still having some problems with my missiles, they tend to fail at first shot so I usually use one and when it reaches 8km another one, normally the second one will take the plane very short of enrgy, is that realistic??

[Gazehound]

The further out the shot is taken from (and lower down) the less likely it will intercept. Do you mean the second missile hits the plane at a low energy state, or makes the target plane lose a lot of energy?

It dosent sound like you are having too much of a problem to me if your second missile is hitting, thats fairly normal.

[The Beast]

I tried almost everything but my missiles tend to fail the target and theirs always kill me. I have a kill ratio of negative 1-5 in the Su-27 Flanker against any aircraft loaded with AIM-120C and sometimes Vs aircraft loaded with AIM-7, that's embarrasing I know but before pass definetively to the Su-25, will give another oportunity to my beloved Flanker If I get some advices about A/A combat.

Thank's for the help

 

 

hey FYI for anyone flying agaisnt -15 and an aim-7 the -15 needs to keep radar contact until the -7 hits its target unlike the -120 which is a fire a forget weapon the -7 uses the -15s radar to guide its self to the target so if you can break radar lock on the -15 you should be able to dodge the -7 no as for the -120 all i have to say is good luck and one quick question how come no one ever talks about evading aim-9s

[britgliderpilot]

one quick question how come no one ever talks about evading aim-9s

 

Break hard, throw out some flares, if possible cut afterburners.

 

You just dodged a Sidewinder.

 

 

BVR fighting is rather more tricky, which is why we tend to spend more time on it.

[The Beast]

Break hard, throw out some flares, if possible cut afterburners.

 

You just dodged a Sidewinder.

 

 

BVR fighting is rather more tricky, which is why we tend to spend more time on it.

 

 

but correct me if im wrong the aim-9 is one of the more reliable misilles the US has

[BOPrey]

unlike the -120 which is a fire a forget weapon

 

Fire and Forget? Gee! At what range.

[The Beast]

Fire and Forget? Gee! At what range.

 

 

at most any range u can fire it the -120 has its own radar therefore doesnt need the jets radar to guide it after its fired i have experienced this in the game as well most anytime i fire a 120 i change my target and fire another i have had 3 120s in the air at once turned away from those 3 jets and got kills on all three so yes it is a fire and forget weapon

[Gazehound]

at most any range u can fire it the -120 has its own radar therefore doesnt need the jets radar to guide it after its fired i have experienced this in the game as well most anytime i fire a 120 i change my target and fire another i have had 3 120s in the air at once turned away from those 3 jets and got kills on all three so yes it is a fire and forget weapon

Youre supposed to maintain lock until your hud says the missile has gone active (indide a certain distance from the target). If you do not you are maddogging and at reasonable ranges, and thus have lower pk.

[GGTharos]

And this will be ACCURATELY relfected in 1.11.

 

If you drop the lock before the TTA (or specifically, significantly earlier) your chances of hitting that target will be very low.

[The Beast]

Youre supposed to maintain lock until your hud says the missile has gone active (indide a certain distance from the target). If you do not you are maddogging and at reasonable ranges, and thus have lower pk.

 

 

how do u maintain lock on 4 different a/c 'cause correct me if im wrong but you can track and fire at up to 8 different targets with the -15c and the 120

[BOPrey]

how do u maintain lock on 4 different a/c 'cause correct me if im wrong but you can track and fire at up to 8 different targets with the -15c and the 120

 

Track While Scan. This mode is designed to simultaneously engage multiple targets for the 120 and R-77.

[BOPrey]

And this will be ACCURATELY relfected in 1.11.

 

If you drop the lock before the TTA (or specifically, significantly earlier) your chances of hitting that target will be very low.

 

Amen.

[The Beast]

Track While Scan. This mode is designed to simultaneously engage multiple targets for the 120 and R-77.

 

 

so the -120 is a fire and forget weapon to a certian extent correct?

[BOPrey]

No. Before the 120 goes active; if your radar losses track of the target, the missile is useless, and there are many ways to loss track of your target. TWS works by comparing target parameters of successive scan instead of maintaining a constant bean on the target. By comparing target parameters from multiple returns of different scans. The radar is able to tell return x of this scan is from the same object as return y of the last scan. So the radar can kind of "lock" on to the target. If the parameters of the return is different enough, the radar can be fooled into thinking it is a different object, and that is one way you can loss track of a target. As what parameters do radars used for their heuristic target designation, they are clasify, and diferent manufacturer and different countries have their own tricks.