avlolga Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 PeterP great work with this cube project.... like any of your stuff you r providing great results. :thumbup::thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Peter, I had a look at your last sketch of the projector setup. I may be missing something, but wouldn't it be better to place the projectors behind the screens (I'm not talking rear projection here!)? That way you'd have only the lens area with no projection and no shadows of the projectors themself. Sure, with a given room size, the projection volume get's smaller as you can't use the room walls as screens. However, I don't see an immediated disadvantage in that other than that you have to build separate screens to project on. Cheers, Stefan I also thought first about it.... But that would also mean that you have to smaller all projection screens - in a cubic projection all screens must have the same size/aspect or it will be distorted. And this would also mean that his Head could easily cast a shadow because he has not enough room under the projection-beams. Please have a look at the Sketchup model and you will understand. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropship Pilot Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I also thought first about it.... But that would also mean that you have to smaller all projection screens - in a cubic projection all screens must have the same size/aspect or it will be distorted. And this would also mean that his Head could easily cast a shadow because he has not enough room under the projection-beams. Please have a look at the Sketchup model and you will understand. :) Ah, I see! Thanks! :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHawthorne Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 My plan is to still progress with this sort of design for my next screen project. I'm making good headway on my F-84F cockpit for an airshow in September. Until that's done I'm holding off on any detailed experimentation on this. My plan is to still do rear projection because frankly even with short throw projectors front projection won't work right without some major voodoo and mirrors. On a slightly unrelated note, I'm assisting Immersaview and Oculus with a NTHUSIM HMD edition. Expect some sort of announcement in the next few weeks. That's eating into my spare time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flim Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 Well well... that we be cool, I should have the rift in December to test if need be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHawthorne Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Well well... that we be cool, I should have the rift in December to test if need be... Alex just announced the NTHUSIM HMD Edition for pre-order. I'm gathering a short list of people I know that did the Kickstarter to also assist with testing. Both Alex and I are in direct contact with Palmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flim Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 I'll jump in if need be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y2kiah Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 not exactly a cube, but... awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadroc Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 I also did the oculus kick starter if you need another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flim Posted September 15, 2012 Author Share Posted September 15, 2012 I wonder if you did... Awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) I was really hot for getting 3x 27" monitors last few days (that are fairly cheap) to try out this 3 screen setup (3 separate camera viewpoints) so since I have 2x 24 monitors I thought I give it a crack and try with centre and right camera viewpoint... about 2 hours of playing in DCS World Su-25T I have come to few conclusions: - The bezel width didn't really bother me a lot (these monitors have about 2cm thick bezel L/R each) but I do think that the smaller the gap/bezel the better as you do lose some continuity between images on the screens, which is not too bad if you have 6DoF so you just move head a bit to see part of cockpit that is not covered but the view of the land is still missing and moving head doesn't cut it, you have to tilt the aircraft instead... not a really big deal bit still - Monitors I used in this test are 1920x1200 res - so total resolution running was 3840x1200 (4.608.000 pixels) my video card is HD7970 and it was still "alright" and playable but I had to reduce some of my normal settings. I had to reduce my tweaked district distance from 20km to default 10km, reduce bushes from 1300 to 9000 and trees from 13000 to 9600 (so about 2/3). The extra FoV 2nd monitor brings takes decent impact on framerate, I can imagine how much 3rd one would do. I assume next gen video card like HD8xxx should be enough to run 3x 24" with same resolution or maybe get monitors with 1080 vertical res but you definitely need top of the line CPU also. - the 3 monitors would ideally have to be set 90° to each other and your eyes should be in centre (height wise) of the monitors otherwise it looks little weird when horizont changes angle vertically. Playing a bit more I find 70° FoV is little more natural, you get more definition and its little easier to stop ground units and when using guns it matters even more (as I dont use zoom) - Track IR can still come in handy to have vertical view and shift L/R & F/R so you don't really need 4th or 5th monitor to see above you or front instruments - ideally you would working switches for the pit so you need to look at front instruments only (could use 4th monitor for them only) - If you are to use monitors I think 42" would be best, you can keep the front monitor about 60-70cm in front of you and L/R 90° to the sides... this is what I am thinking I probably should be getting but then one of the monitors needs to be fixed onto a moving hinge so you can open/close to be able to get into the pit/chair etc. - overall it's bloody expensive thing to setup and you do have to sacrifice on visuals so I'm not sure if I will go ahead with this... on the bright side, it is very cool to have extra visibility when flying nice and level, taxing, etc. It is only still not enough when you are flying a fighter and have to check your six, then you still need to use TrackIR The way I tried this out was 90° FoV and the feeling of having the side view is quite nice I have to say and I can imagine it would be even better if I had 3rd 24" to set for the left side. While I was using TrackIR for vertical view only it was somewhat enough to vew above but it felt weird while I was looking up/down and to the side... it disoriented me a bit especially while in turn, maybe needs bit getting used to. PS: I had one monitor connected via DVI port and second via miniDP->VGA converter and VGA cable, I have to say image quality was still good and I could not tell a difference between monitor using DVI cable and one using VGA cable. Edited September 30, 2012 by Kuky No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memento10 Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Could i suggest considering using the cube design but rounding the corners starting about 10 inches from each corner to minimize the 90 degree transition? I think it would help give it a less noticeable corner and better immersion. Simple to do with heavy paper or fabric. I agree that if you're going this far, then the 5 projector solution is the way to go, 4 projectors for 360 view and 5th for ceiling off a mirror, projecors arent designed to point up so the heat can damage it, use a first surface mirror as previously posted. PeterP's first design for the rear view using a projector on its own for rear view is best imho as so many times you want to look directly behind you after pulling upbfrom a bombing or gun run. Looking up is also great when banking or in a dogfight. As Bhawthorne says the hardware and software arent ther to make a dome system possible, this is an amazing project and solution. Im so bore of my 3 monitor setup, doesnt feel immersive at all. I think too much focus has been on the pit than more creative visual systems. Im very interested to seeing a working prototype! One day soon we'll see LED 1920x1080 short throw projectors at an affordable price which would make these projects much more attainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHawthorne Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) Could i suggest considering using the cube design but rounding the corners starting about 10 inches from each corner to minimize the 90 degree transition? I think it would help give it a less noticeable corner and better immersion. Simple to do with heavy paper or fabric. I agree that if you're going this far, then the 5 projector solution is the way to go, 4 projectors for 360 view and 5th for ceiling off a mirror, projecors arent designed to point up so the heat can damage it, use a first surface mirror as previously posted. PeterP's first design for the rear view using a projector on its own for rear view is best imho as so many times you want to look directly behind you after pulling upbfrom a bombing or gun run. Looking up is also great when banking or in a dogfight. As Bhawthorne says the hardware and software arent ther to make a dome system possible, this is an amazing project and solution. Im so bore of my 3 monitor setup, doesnt feel immersive at all. I think too much focus has been on the pit than more creative visual systems. Im very interested to seeing a working prototype! One day soon we'll see LED 1920x1080 short throw projectors at an affordable price which would make these projects much more attainable. Rounding the corners will change the geometry of the projections making pre-warping a requirement. Personally, I have no issue with that idea because I'm well versed in it, but it's a bit more exotic than just using flat screens though. The sooner 20,000 hour LED 1080p short-throws are available the better. I like dreams like this. :thumbup: [things to ponder] But even if they're not short throws, if they go LED it means the thermals on the projectors are managable to do portrait. 1080x1920 is a sexy concept for pixel height. When you put a regular throw projector on end it turns short throw to begin with because it's throwing almost 2x more pixel height at the same distance. Force a custom resolution of 1920x1920 on the 1080x1920 projection and use a mirror to force an anamorphic effect to make the projection square. [/things to ponder] Edited October 7, 2012 by BHawthorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memento10 Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 BHawthorne, I think the warping and edgeblending would be worth the effort, correct that nthusim can't do 5 projectors and you'd need immersaview? Do you know how much that would cost? Also, in your video showing 180 degree Lomac with 3 projectors, what's the pixel density like sitting where you were? Do you find the resolution is adequate or did you want to mover further away from the screen? Ideally I'd like the system to take up less space than more, perhaps 8 feet by 8 feet. Do you see any problem with that, other than throw distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHawthorne Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 BHawthorne, I think the warping and edgeblending would be worth the effort, correct that nthusim can't do 5 projectors and you'd need immersaview? Do you know how much that would cost? Also, in your video showing 180 degree Lomac with 3 projectors, what's the pixel density like sitting where you were? Do you find the resolution is adequate or did you want to mover further away from the screen? Ideally I'd like the system to take up less space than more, perhaps 8 feet by 8 feet. Do you see any problem with that, other than throw distance. Immersaview's standard consumer pre-warping utility is tailored for up to three projectors. If you have a specific need for something over three projectors Immersaview can arrange for use of their professional version under a non-commercial license on a case by case basis for the cost of NTHUSIM Plus. This is not regularly done, but if you are going to do something exotic -- such as 4 or 5 projectors -- Immersaview is accomodating as long as you are good about documenting the build on the internet to help others. The link in my sig is from late 2009/early 2010. Back then I was using 1024x768 projectors with a projection height of 60". I have gone up to 84" on 1280x800 with a preference of 60-72" for pixel height on projectors that do 760 or 800 pixel height maximum. I would suggest no more than 72" and prefer 60" projection height on those resolution type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memento10 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 So 60" high with at 16:9 projector would be 106" wide. So in this cube system, 106" wide would put the total width, just under 9 feet wide. So I suppose this is a limiting factor to the size of the cube to maintain good video quality. I would even like to see 1920x1080 at 60" as I'd much rather have excellent resolution than take up more space. This cube system would not only be great for DCS but would make so many other games fun to play again even if only using 3 projectors instead of 5. I wish it would be possible to give the cube the sleek 'chamber' appearance of the professional simulators such as the CAE systems... never seen anything for sale that might substitute for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHawthorne Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) So 60" high with at 16:9 projector would be 106" wide. So in this cube system, 106" wide would put the total width, just under 9 feet wide. So I suppose this is a limiting factor to the size of the cube to maintain good video quality. I would even like to see 1920x1080 at 60" as I'd much rather have excellent resolution than take up more space. This cube system would not only be great for DCS but would make so many other games fun to play again even if only using 3 projectors instead of 5. I wish it would be possible to give the cube the sleek 'chamber' appearance of the professional simulators such as the CAE systems... never seen anything for sale that might substitute for that. Be mindful that going 1080p projectors means adding complexity to the design. You're most likely going to have to creatively bounce the projections off of first surface mirrors to regain that lens throw range short throws have. There are no short throw 1080p projectors in the consumer price range. By short throw I mean between 0.72:1 and 0:49:1 lens throw ratio. That is the sweet spot for projector specs to do this kind of stuff. I don't think you'll find a 1080p with a lens throw less than 1.32:1 which is almost double the maximum lens throw limitation. That really screws up designs with mounting limitations and forces you to get creative with mirrors. It's also the main reason why 1280x800 projectors dominate multi-projector builds. I'd be using 1080p projectors already in my builds if I could find any with 0.72:1 or shorter lens throw. I don't want to mess with mylar or plexi based first surface mirror configurations to add complexity to the design. The simplest designs are often the most functional. Adding mirrors to the design create new sources for calibration headaches. Edited October 8, 2012 by BHawthorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropship Pilot Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 What about the Acer S1213Hn? Cheers, Stefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHawthorne Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 What about the Acer S1213Hn? Cheers, Stefan The lens throw is good, the resolution is the minimum I'd use. My first build used 1024x768 native resolution projectors, but I moved onto 1280x800 projectors. The price seems ok I guess too. I prefer to stay around the $500-700 USD range. The S3D capability is handy on them, but not a crucial selling point. This isn't a projector I've seen others used on builds but strictly speaking, the lens throw is within the range of usable projectors. If it was readily available in your area it would be an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropship Pilot Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) Dang - there are some shops that have it listed as 1920x1080! And I fell for it... :poster_oops: Edited October 9, 2012 by Dropship Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHawthorne Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) Dang - there are some shops that have it listed as 1920x1080! And I fell for it... You'll find the keywords to look for in projector specs is "native resolution". Projectors all have scalers built into them that allow non-native resolutions over the native one. Some retailers will even falsely advertise projectors as 1080p when the real native resolution is often 1280x800. I'll often run my projectors in 1680x1080 or 1920x1080 mode but they're scaling, not native at those resolutions. Edited October 9, 2012 by BHawthorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropship Pilot Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I'll often run my projectors in 1680x1080 or 1920x1080 mode but they're scaling, not native at those resolutions. Are you using the "larger than native" resolutions just for video or for the sim too? In the later case it would be a waste of GPU power or am I missing something? - Stefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHawthorne Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) Are you using the "larger than native" resolutions just for video or for the sim too? In the later case it would be a waste of GPU power or am I missing something? - Stefan Some games are better suited to 1680x1050 or 1920x1080 resolutions because of user interface layouts. 1280x800 a game interface can be obstructive to gameplay depending on what game it is. There are many games that have UI scalers in preference though, where i can set the UI to something like 66 or 75% scale if I want to. The games that do not have that option and have a cluttered UI I use a scaled resolution on. For example, many of the MMORPGs I play have really cluttered UIs that work much better with a scaled resolution. Edited October 9, 2012 by BHawthorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropship Pilot Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Ah, that makes sense! :thumbup: Thanks, Stefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHawthorne Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) Small update on my motivation to further pursue this. Cockpitfest USA 2012 is done, so I can shift focus back on another screen build project. I currently have 3 Optoma GT720 and 3 Optoma EX525ST. I'm in the process of updating my video card from two AMD 5870 E6 to either an ASUS 7970 DCII or an MSI 7970 Lightning E6 card. I next need to sell the Optoma EX525ST's on ebay and get two more GT720's from the proceeds. That'll have me in proper shape for the build. I suppose I could just mix and match the GT720's and EX525ST's but I'd prefer using a common projector type to keep things simple. I'll use Rose Brand Tendo stretch screen fabric for the rear projection. It's not good gain but it's a known quantity to me from previous builds. My personal to-do list is: 1: Sell the Optoma EX525ST's for around $350 each. 2: Get the 7970 E6 card. 3: Pick up about $300 in screen materials. Edited October 27, 2012 by BHawthorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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