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Flameout landing questions


HammerUK9
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Afternoon all,

 

I've been practising flameout landings in the past couple of days so that I can include them in some advanced training/assessment missions I'm making. The descent profile I've put together works, is consistent with what's in the 10-Alpha Dash-1 and also with my brief and limited experience as a military pilot. In an eternal quest for perfect adherence to procedure, I've got a few questions :) :

 

1) Is there a visual reference point for commencing the practice flameout from high key? One can't see the runway at all (even when on the deadside) so I've resorted to counting seconds after the IAP (Initial Aim Point) disappears below the nose.

 

2) Should you begin the downwind turn immediately over high key? I tend to carry on straight for a further 1000ft of descent before turning. Likewise, I begin the final turn when I've reached about 3000ft.

 

3) Are flaps used at any point in the procedure? In my experience, we went to T/O flap on the crosswind leg and then land flap when you were assured of making the IAP.

 

I've found that glide performance with engines idling is quite close to engines off (as you'd always train with the engines left running!), while in a real flameout, starting the APU would allow you to retain HUD indications of speed and altitude so it is still usable.

 

I'm sure I'll have more, but thanks for your attention in the meantime!

 

Tim

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Tim,

 

1) The best way to identify high key is to pick a reference point abeam the touchdown zone, about 2-3 miles away. When you pass abeam that reference point, you're in the right spot.

 

2) Yes, begin the turn at high key; but fly a wider, more circular ground track than a normal overhead pattern - limit bank to about 30°. Low key is about 4,000 AGL, abeam the threshold. Continue the turn to arrive at base key at about 2,500 AGL. Pitch to maintain at least 160 knots all the way around the SFO pattern.

 

3) In a true dual-flameout situation you will not have hydraulics, so don't practice with the flaps out otherwise you'll have a rude surprise when it happens for "real". You also won't have normal gear extension, normal brakes or speedbrakes, so make sure you pull the Aux Gear Extension, and Emer Brake handles just prior to high key.

"They've got us surrounded again - those poor bastards!" - Lt. Col. Creighton Abrams

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Hi BlueRidge,

 

Thanks for those words of advice! I see what you mean about the flaps - almost all my practice has been flapless, as would be expected, but I haven't yet tried the pattern in Manual Reversion.

 

I would imagine in real training that it would be done in normal flight mode (as the engines would still be running). I guess that, if you're going to practise at all (bearing in mind that ejection always seems the preferred option), you wouldn't add to the risk by attempting it in manual reversion. AFAIAA, Man Reversion IS practised but only under controlled circumstances. Do I need correcting on this?

 

Anyways, my last one went pretty well so I've decided to attach a track. If you can see it, please excuse the half-finished skin! :) In a day or two I'll give it a voiceover and whack it up on Youtube.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

PFL.trk

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As near as I know, outside of a no-kidding emergency there are only two scenarios in which you would ever intentionally enter manual reversion. First, it's part of the Advanced Handling training when you first learn to fly the A-10, so you briefly fly in manual reversion for a few minutes as a demonstration of the capability. The second is after certain maintenance is performed on the airplane, and a specially qualified pilot must perform a Functional Check Flight before the jet can be returned to service.

 

In both instances the actual manual reversion portion of the flight is performed above 10,000 ft, and is held to the minimum practical duration.

 

So, it depends on what you're trying to simulate. If you want to simulate a simulated flameout approach, then just do it at idle thrust with powered flight controls, and call it a day. But for argument's sake, the place where real pilots would practice manual reversion is in the simulator, so it's perfectly reasonable to try it "for real" in DCS. It just depends on how far you want to take the simulation.

"They've got us surrounded again - those poor bastards!" - Lt. Col. Creighton Abrams

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...and that's the mind-messing dilemma :)

 

We're sitting here, using the simulator to do what the pilots can do in the real jet. The pilots are sitting there, using the simulator do do what they can't do in the real jet.

 

While we're so intent on replicating actual operations and procedures, it's oh so easy to forget that they also use sims to practice not crashing in emergencies and to try new things - I guess that's why DCSWH was made in the first place!

 

Tim

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Get the BFT campaign, in BFT 06 advanced handling you have to do stall, spin, defensive spiral, lazy 8 followed by a dead stick landing. For the dead stick landing you have to turn both engines off.(throttle back, Right Alt end and Right CNTRL End) The emergency strip is extremely short and I've already crashed a couple of times trying to beat this mission. In BFT 08 Emergencys you get to fly with several faults that cause you to have to use Manual Reversion and try to land. Although BFT campaign is a payware product I do find that it is quite educational learning all this stuff and having to use it as you would if such situations arise.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=62992

 

lol

 

If you want to simulate a simulated flameout approach, then just do it at idle thrust with powered flight controls, and call it a day. But for argument's sake, the place where real pilots would practice manual reversion is in the simulator, so it's perfectly reasonable to try it "for real" in DCS. It just depends on how far you want to take the simulation.

 

:doh::D

[sIGPIC]2011subsRADM.jpg

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