Ракеты в DCS

[tavarish palkovnik]

АПУ-470 has declined axis toward plane, don't take me for grant, from somewhere I have 2 deg in my mind. Rocket first second or two after realising from the APU will have slightly decaying path, let's count it as 50 meters in down, then angle of attack will be induced by steering elements, let's count it as +5 deg and that Cx will be at least 50% higher and I'm giving such overload till second fifth when rocket will come in 0 deg of  тангаж (don't have english term on mind, elevation perhaps). Rest of active time without or just slight angle of attack, in any case less then 1 deg, less then 0,75 even.

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by tavarish palkovnik

[Hoarfrost]

во вчерашних обновлениях баг ОЛС не исправили еще? никто не пробовал?

[Teknetinium]

1 hour ago, Hoarfrost said:

во вчерашних обновлениях баг ОЛС не исправили еще? никто не пробовал?

Unfortunately the EOS bug is still present. I hope ED are on it. Has chaff resistance changed? 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Teknetinium

[BlackPixxel]

Especially now that the updated R-27ER is even worse than the older one, it is very important to have the radar/OLS interaction fixed.

 

Now targets have an even easier time triggering the chaffbug and getting the missile to do unnecessary high G snake maneuvers, because the missile flies even slower towards them within the kill range (shots from < 10 km).

Edited April 23, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[TotenDead]

Да не сказать, что хуже. Как раньше не мог бороться с амраамами, так и сейчас не могу, зато ракета стала маневреннее, летит подальше. Я считаю стало лучше

[BlackPixxel]

On 4/22/2021 at 11:36 AM, tavarish palkovnik said:

In addition with black lines are presented trajectories of ''gorka'' , flight without overload, just initial angle.

 

What do you mean with gorka?

A loft? A loft to achieve a flight path of 0 g? A lofted trajectory by shooting upwards?

[HWasp]

19 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

Especially now that the updated R-27ER is even worse than the older one, it is very important to have the radar/OLS interaction fixed.

 

Now targets have an even easier time triggering the chaffbug and getting the missile to do unnecessary high G snake maneuvers, because the missile flies even slower towards them within the kill range (shots from < 10 km).

 

 

I would not say, that it is worse than before. Overall higher top speed, less drag, would not trade it for the old one.

 

Fix the guidance problems, by all means. It should be more reliable. I don't think that pushing for further changes in kinmatics makes sense until guidance is fixed.

Edited April 24, 2021 by HWasp

[tavarish palkovnik]

2 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

What do you mean with gorka?

A loft? A loft to achieve a flight path of 0 g? A lofted trajectory by shooting upwards?

Вертикальная горка, trajectory somewhere between ballistic path, optimal path to achieve maximal end velocity and path with slight kinematic overload but still not horizontal flight. This end one is that one.

 

R-27ER has that opportunity, it is well known. Is it up to pilot to choose like in case of some other rockets, Kh-25ML for example, or is it implemented in algorithm of the prelaunch procedure and autopilot of the rocket, I don’t know but would like to get that answer. That interests me the most. There must be something written in those manuals from where these priceless diagrams coming from, if not directly then something “between lines”.

 

 

This I look as Максимальные зоны возможных пусков. Figher and target distance 60km at 10km with identical velocity of 250m/s.

 

This however I see as diagram applicable for horizontal paths only. And that should be somewhere noted in manual. Simple logic and mathematical explanation. It says that with launch velocity of 250m/s rocket will be after 57 seconds at longest distance from the fighter which in that time will pass 14250m. Distance 21000m what together makes 35250m. Target in same time makes 14250m as well.

 

60000-35250-14250=10500m !!! Only 3 seconds of manageable flight remains for rocket to hit target which is 10,5 kilometers away and rocket has flight speed of only 250m/s just as target. Gap of 9000 meters.

 

What that means. It means rocket can fly with gorka, without hard overload necessary for horizontal path. 
Is it up to pilot or automatic algorithm in function of velocity, altitude and target type choose trajectory I don’t know, but for sure R-27ER must have doubled velocity-time and distance-time diagrams.

 

 

[BlackPixxel]

2 hours ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

R-27ER has that opportunity, it is well known. Is it up to pilot to choose like in case of some other rockets, Kh-25ML for example, or is it implemented in algorithm of the prelaunch procedure and autopilot of the rocket, I don’t know but would like to get that answer. That interests me the most. There must be something written in those manuals from where these priceless diagrams coming from, if not directly then something “between lines”.

 

Mhmm, where have you read this about the R-27ER having such feature?

 

The only time I have seen some "special trajectories" mentioned is here:

"In some cases, corrections are introduced into the guidance law applicable to the radar-guided missiles to optimize their flight trajectories for best performance of the radar homing head and proximity fuse. For example, to avoid a stream of clutter by taking the missile out of the aircraft radar's primary beam or provide for a diving attack on the target at a preset angle."

[tavarish palkovnik]

Even and without official document that says it exactly and undoubtedly , from available diagrams that conclusion is coming by it self.

 

 

[Max1mus]

Что касается планы с Р-27, есть новости? Ухудшение 27ЭР и 27ЭТ на дальностях <10км очень заметное, ракеты сейчас намного меньше смертельные.

[Chizh]

6 минут назад, Max1mus сказал:

Что касается планы с Р-27, есть новости? Ухудшение 27ЭР и 27ЭТ на дальностях <10км очень заметное, ракеты сейчас намного меньше смертельные.

Сейчас у нас нет планов планов по переделке Р-27. 

Со временем, мы переведем ее на новую динамику, когда появится свободное время.

[Max1mus]

Понятно. Значит как минимум ещё 2 года, когда вы советский МиГ в игру добавите.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Max1mus

[TotenDead]

1 час назад, Max1mus сказал:

Что касается планы с Р-27, есть новости? Ухудшение 27ЭР и 27ЭТ на дальностях <10км очень заметное, ракеты сейчас намного меньше смертельные.

Зато на больших дальностях более полезные. Зачем в принципе использовать Р-27 в ближнем бою?

[BlackPixxel]

9 hours ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

Even and without official document that says it exactly and undoubtedly , from available diagrams that conclusion is coming by it self.

 

 

 

Is that image from a real manual?

Is there anything else supporting the idea of the R-27 having this kind of loft?

 

Here is some R-27R launch that looks pretty much like a lofted launch. But it could also be a very high target, who knows:

 

R-27R/ER use the seeker antenna as gyro for the inertial navigation. So there is a spinning mass that keeps the antenna stabilized in space and allows for meassurement of angular movements of the missile.

The antenna is pointed just before the moment of launch towards the direction that the target is expected to be from the missile when the missile will have reached the seeker range (40 km, 25 km, 10 km, depending on target size setting). Before the missile transitions to semiactive homing, the antenna cannot be moved, because this would make the work of the antenna as gyro impossible.

So for a loft to work on the R-27, the antenna would have to be pointed a bit downwards before the launch. This way, when the missile is within the seeker range to the target, the seeker would correctly point at the target below the missile. Now the missile could dive onto the target at a pretty constant angle.

 

1 hour ago, TotenDead said:

Зато на больших дальностях более полезные. Зачем в принципе использовать Р-27 в ближнем бою?

 

Kills with the R-27 against targets with more than 3 braincells are almost excusively made in close range (< 10 km), because of how the R-27  seeker is addicted to chaff and stuff like the radar/OLS interaction + chaffbug.

 

So Max1mus is absolutely right when he says that the new R-27 is worse. Because in that close range regime the reduced boost thrust of the motor causes the missile to take more time to reach the target.

 

And all that because of some graph that does not even seem to consider the R-27 having a boost/sustain motor.

Edited April 25, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[Max1mus]

Long range performance only really got better at high to very high altitudes. Down low its either the same or worse, against a maneuvering target certainly worse for the reasons Blackpixxel described.

I note that the AIM-120, especially the C, still severely outrange the R-27 at high altitude, passing it at about the 30-40 second mark. So there are still no tactics or timeline required to operate F-18 and F-16 in the DCS environment, just fly straight and kill the target.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Max1mus

[FoxAlfa]

12 hours ago, Chizh said:

Сейчас у нас нет планов планов по переделке Р-27. 

Со временем, мы переведем ее на новую динамику, когда появится свободное время.

Can we just get the EO bug fixed? I think new dynamics are quite well.

[HWasp]

 

 

Ok, so here is the old, already reported thread about the problem.

 

Is there any way to fix this without complete redesign?

 

One idea: What if chaff would disappear in 0.5 to 1 sec after release? This would simulate stationary chaff being filtered out. Chaff would still have an effect but missiles would not do such large turns away from the target.

 

After how much time does chaff disappear in game currently?

Edited April 26, 2021 by HWasp

[BlackPixxel]

1 hour ago, HWasp said:

 

 

Ok, so here is the old, already reported thread about the problem.

 

Is there any way to fix this without complete redesign?

 

Chances of this bug occuring would decrease many times if the issue of radar/OLS interaction would get solved.

Instead of having an instant switch to OLS as soon as the target enters the notch (for example when changing aspect) the radar should stay in extrapolation mode and keep painting the target for a short moment. So at least when the target changes aspect quickly the missile would not lose energy and be trashed because of the chaffbug, only by actually getting chaffed.

Chizh anounced that this would be done, but now we wait patch after patch for weeks and nothing changes.

Edited April 26, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[FAB999]

У меня вызывает не поддельный интерес тот факт что почему то УР Р-27ЭР не может и не должна делать горку после старта с носителя при стрельбе на дальностях более дальности захвата (приема отраженного сигнала БРЛС) свое й ГСН  !

 

Начнем с того что какая антенна на носителе передает команды РК и какая антенна на УР принимает эти сигналы ? где они располагаются на носителе и на УР ? На каких ракурсах носителя и УР обеспечивается устойчивый передача-прием сигнала РК, по условию самозатенения или выходя из ДН передающей антенны ?

 

Исходя из этого почему в РЛЭ есть строки о не допустимости стрельбы по ВЦ на уравненных высотах Р-27 !?  Так же судя по тех. документам перед стартом на УР проходят сигналы как по дальности (расчетное время полета) так и по базе цели (большая ,средняя, малая) исходи из которых  во время полета УР должны проходить сигналы по линии РК на ориентацию ГСН УР в совей системе координат и выход на дальность устойчивого приема отраженного сигнала БРЛС носителя и тем самым на режим самонаведение и последующим подрывом по радиовзрывателю !
 

в общем куча ? ? ?

надеюсь ED знает ответы на э и вопросы     хотелось б ы  их услышать ...

Edited April 26, 2021 by FAB999

[tavarish palkovnik]

СУО истребителя перед пуском выдает команду на разворот антенны РГС, ось Х которой перед сходом ракеты с самолета выставляеется параллельно линии прогрозируемой дальности ракета-цель в момент захвата, задавая, тем самым инерциальный базис (антенная СК), который не меняется в течение всего времена инерциального СН с радиокоррекцией.

 

Управление ракетой на инерциальном участке осуществляется таким образом, чтоби цель оказалась, и в дальнейшем удерживалась, на направлении оси Х АСК, которая совпадает с равносигнальным направлением антенны РГС.

Edited April 27, 2021 by tavarish palkovnik

[Кош]

По поводу переключения с РЛС на ОЛС при срыве захвата, сколько все таки цель должна быть в нотче для срыва и перехода на альтернативный сенсор при включенном ВЗМД? Есть ли возможность ввести и замапить этот переключатель? Должна ли ОЛС при ведущей РЛС ориентироваться по РЛС(РЛС 146% ориентируется по ОЛС)? 

[BlackPixxel]

2 hours ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

СУО истребителя перед пуском выдает команду на разворот антенны РГС, ось Х которой перед сходом ракеты с самолета выставляеется параллельно линии прогрозируемой дальности ракета-цель в момент захвата, задавая, тем самым инерциальный базис (антенная СК), который не меняется в течение всего времена инерциального СН с радиокоррекцией.

 

Управление ракетой на инерциальном участке осуществляется таким образом, чтоби цель оказалась, и в дальнейшем удерживалась, на направлении оси Х АСК, которая совпадает с равносигнальным направлением антенны РГС.

 

 

How would it be able to do the Gorka, when during the radio corrected phase it is trying to move the equisignal direction of the stabilized antenna onto the target?

[tavarish palkovnik]

Rough model

 

[BlackPixxel]

Would that still allow for a more efficient flight path with that much maneuvering for the climb? Two turns are required, both drastically changing the direction of the missile, bleeding of energy.

 

So far I have not seen anything that says that such a maneuver exists for the R-27 in the manuals etc.

Edited April 27, 2021 by BlackPixxel