Ракеты в DCS

[ААК]

Интересная информация, главное чтобы имела под собой реальные основания. Р-27Т с 30 G - по мне ракета тогда будет в БВБ посильнее чем AIM-9М с 40G, т.к. движок позволяет держать большие G дольше, не говоря об перекачанной энергией Р-27ЭТ. Также получается, должно быть превосходство в маневре над AIM-7 и равенство перегрузок со Скайфлешем, что с лихвой компенсирует весьма "средние" характеристики дальности неэнергетической 27-й. Кроме того, в теории, если перегрузка дана именно по плоскости крыла, то максимальная перегрузка ракеты за счет единовременного достижения максимальной перегрузки на вертикальных и горизонтальных крыльях вообще может быть квадратичной суммой перегрузок на крыле, а для 30G это 42G. Для АИМ-7, если не ошибаюсь, приводится перегрузка именно по максимальной комбинации перегрузок (т.е. 25G - это уже при обоих задействованных направлениях) а вот для АИМ-9 "по крылу". А для Р-27 получается интрига, я думал что там 24G, а оказывается может быть 30G или даже 42G! Ну правда раньше времени радоваться не стоит

P.S. Да, а у Р-60 время работы движка получается раза в 1.5 больше чем у AIM-9B/E/J/P

Edited October 11, 2021 by ААК

[tavarish palkovnik]

Р-33

 

 

 

 

X-58 разгоняется за 3,6 секунды до 6000 кг плюс 15 секунды до финальных 1000 кг. Оба двигателя вероятно работать на одном и том же топливе ПЭКA-18 или близком к нему

 

[tavarish palkovnik]

Всегда можно воспользоваться возможностью не смотреть, тогда в голове не будет вопросов.

Просто так 

 

[BlackPixxel]

Keep up the posts Tavarish, they are always very interesting!

[Jack1nthecrack]

6 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

Keep up the posts Tavarish, they are always very interesting!

+1

[Vladimir_V_T]

Уважаемые разработчики, уважаемые коллеги! Извиняюсь за дилетантский вопрос, но просветите меня пожалуйста по двум моментам:

1. Что имеется ввиду под поддержкой даталинка у модуля INS ракеты AIM-120?

2. Что означает повышение эффективности ракеты AIM-120 против не маневрирующих целей при отсутствии сопровождения цели радаром самолета-носителя? Я правильно понял, что при срыве захвата до включения ГСН, ракета теперь должна продолжать полёт в ту точку встречи с целью (куда она наводилась до срыва захвата) под управлением своей инерциальной системы, и, если, при достижении этой точки, цель попадёт в область захвата ГСН, то ракета должна захватить и поразить её?

Edited October 20, 2021 by Vladimir_V_T

[dundun92]

9 minutes ago, Vladimir_V_T said:

Что означает повышение эффективности ракеты AIM-120 против не маневрирующих целей при отсутствии сопровождения цели радаром самолета-носителя? Я правильно понял, что при срыве захвата до включения ГСН, ракета теперь должна продолжать полёт в ту точку встречи с целью (куда она наводилась до срыва захвата) под управлением своей инерциальной системы, и, если, при достижении этой точки, цель попадёт в область захвата ГСН, то ракета должна захватить и поразить её?

Previously, unsupported missiles flew straight ahead, not to the last predicted target point. Now they do fly towards last known target point

[GGTharos]

11 minutes ago, Vladimir_V_T said:

1. What is meant by datalink support for the INS module of the AIM-120 rocket?

Before now, there wasn't really a simulation of the radar-missile data-link system or missile INS.   The missile was either guided by the aircraft's radar or not.   This is why if you shot say a 120 and it was in the loft, and the target disappeared for any reason (notch, or the shooter would split S and run away) the AIM-120 would happily fly into orbit instead of trying to fly to the target's last reported location and searching for it there.

Now, there is a more proper implementation ( @Chizh , it would be nice if you could add some details for us ) of target data loaded into the missile before launch, then updated with DL, the INS takes that target location and aims the missile as required to reach its own radar activation point where it will search for the target.

Loading the last known good data before the launch is also part of HoJ.

11 minutes ago, Vladimir_V_T said:

2. What does it mean to increase the effectiveness of the AIM-120 missile  against non-maneuvering targets in the absence of target tracking by the radar of the carrier aircraft? I correctly understood that when the capture is disrupted before the homing is turned on, the rocket should now continue to fly to the meeting point with the target (where it was guided before the capture was disrupted) under the control of its inertial system, and if, upon reaching this point, the target falls into the area capture of the seeker, then the rocket should capture and hit it?

Your understanding is correct. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by GGTharos

[Vladimir_V_T]

@dundun92, @GGTharos thank you for the answers.

[tavarish palkovnik]

Thanks @BlackPixxel , glad to hear you find it interesting. 

Let's share something what could be helpful and could be indeed interesting to all liking to make questions.

Well know equitation for overload value ... N=Cn*ro*v^2*S/(2*m*g). Much smarter people then me wrote one text where between others they needed values of available overloads during flight of the guided missiles type ground-to-air. So they made one helpful equitation for calculation of overload and it looks like this...Nn=Nmax*Vn^2/Vmax^2 

Nn-current available overload

Nmax-maximal available overload

Vn-current velocity

Vmax-maximal velocity

The postulate is that Nmax is when Vmax, further that this is valid only for passive flight when weight is constant. S (referent area) is of course constant so they had 3 variables, velocity (v), density (ro) and lift coefficient (Cn). Then they made conclusion that most of the guided missiles are with form of Cn function between transonic and hypersonic speed ''Cn f(M)'' very close to form of density of air function at altitudes 0-5km ''ro f(H)''

With decreasing of the missile's velocity density slightly decrease (missile goes up in the sky) and lift coefficient slightly increase and in ratio close to say that it is in proportion. So they said Cn*ro also can be considered as constant and respectively they got...

Nn=Nmax*Vn^2/Vmax^2 ... great when have V f(t) and when have or predict one of overload N

Mathematic of guided air-to-air missiles in horizontal flight are such that density is indeed constant so something should be done with equitation because again there are two variables, velocity and Cn.

Nn=Nmax*Vn^2*Cn current / (Vmax^2*Cn at Vmax)  

 

 

This is function ro f(H) and from there can be found ration Cn current / Cn at Vmax.

Example will explain better...R-27ER at 10km fired with 510m/s

 

 

The highest velocity is 1515m/s (5M) and final velocity after 60 seconds is 395m/s (1,32M) - my own calculations so take it just informatively. I will use that maximal available overload is 30 and ratio of Cn is as follows: 1,08/0,74=1,46 ... lift coefficient at 1,32M is 1,46 times higher then at 5M

N final=30*395^2/1515^2=2,04 and *1,46 = 2,98 what is close to expected to be N=3

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by tavarish palkovnik

[Hoarfrost]

27т может по земле работать?

[Chizh]

14 минут назад, Hoarfrost сказал:

27т может по земле работать?

В реале она, как все ИК ракеты старых поколений может наводиться на любой теплоконтрастный объект. На подсвеченное облако, на костер на земле и т.д.

[Jack1nthecrack]

Page 500! This is cause for celebration Chizh, will the R-27ER and R-77 finally be updated?? I think that is the appropriate celebration!

[Fuerte]

Удивительно что никто здесь не обсуждает новую ИНС на амраамах. На предмет правильно ли, неправильно ли. 

[FenechkA]

ну если "ногебае", значит правильная

[Anduriel]

1 hour ago, FenechkA said:

ну если "ногебае", значит правильная

Вообще если, правильно понял из описания, то нагибать лучше должна прямоходыяк вот при маневрировании - похуже, ибо есть уже гейт по скорости, который по идее должен отсекать несовпадения. Т.е. если ты сманеврировал и изменил свою скорость и направление движения ,то шанс перезахвата должен быть сильно ниже.

[lester]

12 hours ago, FenechkA said:

ну если "ногебае", значит правильная

Ну вот тут такой видос с нагибанием постят например:

 

[tavarish palkovnik]

When and if you will work on reprogramming of flight dynamic of R-27R/T/ER/ET and if you have specialized educated stuff able to understand this very difficult and complex issues maybe literature about overhaul could be helpful (overhaul of electrical and electromechanical blocks and components, autopilot etc…аппаратурная часть ракеты in general) 

 

 

 

 

I’ve tried to read this and got brain overheated with zero results to understand principles in some elementary and low leveled scales applicable and useable to simplified usage. But I’m quite sure there are guys able to focus all those coefficients and guiding rules (equitations) in one useful direction.

[Vladimir_V_T]

28.10.2021 в 20:42, lester сказал:

Ну вот тут такой видос с нагибанием постят например:

 

 А что это было? Вроде после обновы пробовал и ничего подобного не наблюдал. По крайней мере на ботах. Пулял почти с максимальных дистанций и ни один бот живой не ушёл.

[GGTharos]

^^^^

There is a strong suspicion that ECM was involved.

[BlackPixxel]

3 hours ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

When and if you will work on reprogramming of flight dynamic of R-27R/T/ER/ET and if you have specialized educated stuff able to understand this very difficult and complex issues maybe literature about overhaul could be helpful (overhaul of electrical and electromechanical blocks and components, autopilot etc…аппаратурная часть ракеты in general) 

 

 

 

 

I’ve tried to read this and got brain overheated with zero results to understand principles in some elementary and low leveled scales applicable and useable to simplified usage. But I’m quite sure there are guys able to focus all those coefficients and guiding rules (equitations) in one useful direction.

 

Hi, could you share those docs or where they can be found?

[nighthawk2174]

6 hours ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

When and if you will work on reprogramming of flight dynamic of R-27R/T/ER/ET and if you have specialized educated stuff able to understand this very difficult and complex issues maybe literature about overhaul could be helpful (overhaul of electrical and electromechanical blocks and components, autopilot etc…аппаратурная часть ракеты in general) 

 

 

 

 

I’ve tried to read this and got brain overheated with zero results to understand principles in some elementary and low leveled scales applicable and useable to simplified usage. But I’m quite sure there are guys able to focus all those coefficients and guiding rules (equitations) in one useful direction.

Не могли бы вы поделиться этими документами?  Я бы с удовольствием взглянул на них!

[Max1mus]

Will "JAFF" (Jamming + Chaff) effects on missiles be added? Against AIM-120 and SD-10, Chaff currently has very negligable effects compared to the new random aiming errors, as indicated by your own changelog.

Meanwhile, the random aiming errors seem to lead to situations like the video above on nonmaneuvering targets, where the X % chance applies multiple times in a row. Mathematically speaking, it could aswell happen 1.000.000 times in a row.

Additionally, i have noticed that there is a period of time during missile flight, where the missile is entirely immune to the doppler filter. We have had an F-15 at exactly 90 degrees and 100 knots turn the ECM off, and the missile will only loose lock after around 2 seconds. But 2 seconds can be a long time in missile flight. Is this observation correct? Is it realistic or some sort of workaround to fix other bugs?

Edited October 31, 2021 by Max1mus

[GGTharos]

14 hours ago, Max1mus said:

Will "JAFF" (Jamming + Chaff) effects on missiles be added?

No, 'JAFF' is not a thing.  I used to think so but I received better information.

14 hours ago, Max1mus said:

Against AIM-120 and SD-10, Chaff currently has very negligable effects compared to the new random aiming errors, as indicated by your own changelog.

Meanwhile, the random aiming errors seem to lead to situations like the video above on nonmaneuvering targets, where the X % chance applies multiple times in a row. Mathematically speaking, it could aswell happen 1.000.000 times in a row.

Targets that do not maneuver should receive direct hits from these missiles with almost not exceptions.  Not passing within fuze range, direct hits.

14 hours ago, Max1mus said:

Additionally, i have noticed that there is a period of time during missile flight, where the missile is entirely immune to the doppler filter. We have had an F-15 at exactly 90 degrees and 100 knots turn the ECM off, and the missile will only loose lock after around 2 seconds. But 2 seconds can be a long time in missile flight. Is this observation correct? Is it realistic or some sort of workaround to fix other bugs?

What does it do during those two seconds?  I mean the way radar memory is implemented in the game is very generally cheaty and has little to do with the 120 specifically.

[Max1mus]

18 hours ago, GGTharos said:

No, 'JAFF' is not a thing.  I used to think so but I received better information.

ED and even the most basic wikipedia article about chaff disagree.