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Ракеты в DCS


Chizh

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07.06.2022 в 17:16, Vladimir_V_T сказал:

Получается, что большой но медленный Ил-76 РЛС Хрнета и Вайпера видит очень далеко, но разрешённая дальность пуска 120-ки появляется где-то в районе 35 nm, а маленький но быстрый МиГ-29 120-ка с F-16 готова атаковать на расстоянии более 40-ка nm, но РЛС Вайпера его так далеко не видит. F-14 способен реализовать все возможности Феникса (хотя последнее время с этой ракетой творится нечто странное и не очень приятное), а выжать максимум из 120-ки у нас получается и не на чём. Это я к тому, что ИМХО в DCS есть острая необходимость в кликабельном F-15C 😉

Так Strike Eagle и Eurofighter же в разработке. 

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20.07.2022 в 15:53, SandMartin сказал:

Так Strike Eagle и Eurofighter же в разработке. 

Жду их с нетерпением. Но F-15C (именно С) тоже очень хотелось бы.

ПОЗОР ВОЕННЫМ ПРЕСТУПНИКАМ!!! ПОЗОР "АРМИИ" ДЕТОУБИЙЦ!!! ПОЗОР ТРУСАМ, СПОСОБНЫМ ВОЕВАТЬ ТОЛЬКО С МИРНЫМ НАСЕЛЕНИЕМ!!!

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2 hours ago, Gahab141 said:

Не могли бы вы добавить Р-73 на МиГ-23МЛД? Их, конечно, вешали не часто, но все же вешали

Р-73 вешались в экпериментальном порядке на МиГ-23МЛДГ в середине 80-х, когда самолет уже снимался с вооружения.

2 hours ago, Gahab141 said:

Еще по этому МиГу - в редакторе в выборе вооружения у него дублируются в списке 2хР-60М. Полагаю там должен быть выбор между Р-60 и Р-60М

Баг.

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Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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49 минут назад, Gahab141 сказал:

Так что, может того, поставите в очередь на добавление?

Это вряд ли, он же красный:) Тем более, достоверной инфы мало, только отрывочные сведения, что с серии 23-18 в 1984г. начали оборудовать. Хотелось бы накопать "железные" аргументы. Пока маловато)

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При чем здесь цвет?

Модуль МиГ-23 делает RAZBAM.

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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16 минут назад, Gahab141 сказал:

эт разве ж мало

Там товарищ или стебётся, или "одно из двух". Официально предупреждаю товарища и его последователей как модератор - такого рода шуточки уже не смешны и давно надоели, посему будут оценены по достоинству. Для нас не имеет значения "цвет" ЛА, а на выбор юнита для моделирования влияют совсем другие факторы.

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Men may keep a sort of level of good, but no man has ever been able to keep on one level of evil. That road goes down and down.  
Можно держаться на одном уровне добра, но никому и никогда не удавалось удержаться на одном уровне зла. Эта дорога ведёт вниз и вниз.

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7 minutes ago, Gahab141 said:

Ни при чем, конечно. Я просто прошу добавить Р-73 ИИшному 23МЛД

Для этого нужно делать на модели ПУ под Р-73. Мы этой моделью заниматься не будем. Ждем от RAZBAM.

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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17 часов назад, USSR_Rik сказал:

Там товарищ или стебётся, или "одно из двух". 

Товарищ всего лишь упомянул шутку с отсылкой к старым холиварам. Не более. В остальном в самом деле - документально подтверждённой информации лично я не находил, а фото не всегда прокатывают как доказательства. А так, устные сведения есть и о том, что даже самолёты, которые модернизировали до уровня МЛД после 85г тоже имели возможность таскать 73. Но как подтверждение это не прокатит. А вообще, конечно, стоит включить Р-73 в номенклатуру, ибо информация есть из разных источников.


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Я надеюсь, Вы прочитали весь мой пост, а не только первую фразу.

Men may keep a sort of level of good, but no man has ever been able to keep on one level of evil. That road goes down and down.  
Можно держаться на одном уровне добра, но никому и никогда не удавалось удержаться на одном уровне зла. Эта дорога ведёт вниз и вниз.

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Not sure who is actually developing the F1 missiles you guys or Aerges but there are several issues. 

530IR and 550IR seeker parameters seem to have been swapped. The 530IR should be cooled semi all aspect (currently rear aspect) and the 550 should be rear aspect (currently all aspect) 

Moreover the 530IR cooldown times and cooling duration is not modeled at all currently. 

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10 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Not sure who is actually developing the F1 missiles you guys or Aerges but there are several issues. 

530IR and 550IR seeker parameters seem to have been swapped. The 530IR should be cooled semi all aspect (currently rear aspect) and the 550 should be rear aspect (currently all aspect) 

Moreover the 530IR cooldown times and cooling duration is not modeled at all currently. 

Why do you think that 530 is all-aspect and 550 not all-aspect?

 

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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10 hours ago, Chizh said:

Why do you think that 530 is all-aspect and 550 not all-aspect?

 

Um well, It seems like this is pretty well known.


The 530IR has a cooled InSb seeker (lots of sources) and is limited all aspect according to the weapons delivery manual which also specifies the InSb seeker. I.e. on supersonic targets frontally, much like the early iterations of Aim4 or Red top which use similar seeker designs and have similar engagement limitations (i.e. short range frontal aspect because the seeker can see the heated aircraft and the supersonic bow shock).

 The 550 (magic1) is described as having a cooled PbS seeker in everything I've read and is described as rear aspect only in every book/webpage Ive seen. Moreover all publications point out the big upgrade from the magic1 to magic 2 is the seeker head that is all aspect. In the general timeline of IR seekers its also pretty unlikely that the 550 (intro 76) actuall beat the Aim-9L (1978) into service as the wests first all aspect missile. 

Honestly from looking at the missile data it just looks like someone fat fingered the "cooled" line in the lua or maybe some of the other seeker params between the two. From in game testing the 550 seeker seems to work how I would expect the 530 to work and vice versa.  

I mean I'm happy to Pm you sources if you want but I don't wanna get 1.16'ed. 

 

Also as an aside, you guys recently fixed the aim9B to work on the saber and the F1 but not the Viggen which is still using the "old" "bugged" missile model. 

 


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1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

Um well, It seems like this is pretty well known.


The 530IR has a cooled InSb seeker (lots of sources) and is limited all aspect according to the weapons delivery manual which also specifies the InSb seeker. I.e. on supersonic targets frontally, much like the early iterations of Aim4 or Red top which use similar seeker designs and have similar engagement limitations (i.e. short range frontal aspect because the seeker can see the heated aircraft and the supersonic bow shock).

 The 550 (magic1) is described as having a cooled PbS seeker in everything I've read and is described as rear aspect only in every book/webpage Ive seen. Moreover all publications point out the big upgrade from the magic1 to magic 2 is the seeker head that is all aspect. In the general timeline of IR seekers its also pretty unlikely that the 550 (intro 76) actuall beat the Aim-9L (1978) into service as the wests first all aspect missile. 

Honestly from looking at the missile data it just looks like someone fat fingered the "cooled" line in the lua or maybe some of the other seeker params between the two. From in game testing the 550 seeker seems to work how I would expect the 530 to work and vice versa.  

 

Could you share the links about aspect pointing-out of 530 and 550?

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4 hours ago, Chizh said:

Could you share the links about aspect pointing-out of 530 and 550?

Sure thing. I also PM'ed you the "top sekrit" documents. (well not really since you can buy them online for a nominal fee) but I don't want to run afoul of your 1.16 rule.

These are the "web"/Public cites, there are more in various books and such, mainly a fair number of quotes from the falklands conflict and assorted books that compare the Magic1 to the 9L. Let me know if you need more "proof". But honestly all this stuff is really really really well known to anyone familiar with the field of IR AAM tech. 


R530

Various citations for it being "limited all aspect" As most InSb seekers developed in the 50's and 60's were, other examples include the USAF AIM-4 program, as well as the British Red-top missiles. And while they are InSb detectors, the primitive states of both dome techonology as well electronics could not give full all aspect performance like the later Aim9L etc.

http://sistemasdearmas.com.br/aam/r530.html
The R.530IR's SAT AD.3501 IR sensor had every aspect capability that could be fired at targets flying towards the launch aircraft. 

Also, in general the 530(radar) works far too well in general given its abysmal combat record.
The R.530 did not have much operational success. There were only three victories: an Egyptian MiG-19 shot down by an Israeli Mirage IIICJ; and an Indian Hawker Hunter and Su-7 shot down by Pakistani Mirage IIIEPs in the 1971 border conflict. Argentina used it in 1982 without success against British Sea Harriers. Compared to missiles of the time like the Firestreak, Red Top, AIM-4A/D and  it wasn't too bad, but in the 70's it was completely outdated.

Here is some peer reviewed work.
https://opticalengineering.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of-spie/2552/0000/History-of-infrared-optronics-in-France/10.1117/12.218281.full?SSO=1

"Another wavelength had to be used and the whole technological basis reviewed. Fortunately, the emergence of binary semi-conductive alloys led to the development of the first Indium Antimonide photodiodes (InSb) working in the 3 to 5 microns waveband"

"In 1960, the MATRA R 530 ( see figure 3) was the first infrared air to air missile in the world working in the 3 to 5 micron wavelength. The infra-red seeker destined to be used on the first air to air missile was developed in France, using at the very start miniaturized electronic tubes which actually met every requirement, then transistor electronics for the series production. From 1964 to 1979, more than 1500 units were produced"

At any rate, model the 530IR as limited all aspect like the R60M and you should be good (and based on my testing that's how the current 550 seeker works in DCS)

R550 Magic1

Multiple sources point out this missile is rear aspect only, having a cooled PbS seeker head, meaning its on par with Stuff like the Aim9D/G/H (since its actually cryo cooled properly unlike the 9E/J). Again this is all basic IR detector physics. No PbS seeker is gonna be all aspect. Moreover even more sources point out "hey the magic 2 was actually all aspect, implying the magic1 was not. 

https://weaponsystems.net/system/516-Matra+R.550+Magic
"The Magic uses an infrared seeker and is a fire and forget missile. The Magic 1 employed a seeker which could engage targets from a rear aspect"
"Also, the seeker proved less reliable at altitudes above 18 km and at very low level. The Magic 2 has a much improved seeker and allows for frontal engagement as well."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.550_Magic
The Magic 2 replaced the AD3601 seeking head by the all-aspect AD3633, allowing frontal fire on the target (the Magic 1 can only be fired from the rear on the target). The Magic 1 has a transparent dome on its nose, while the Magic 2 is opaque.

Book: Iraqi Mirages (tom cooper)
"The secondary weapon was the Matra R.550 Magic (later Magic Mk.1): this short-range air-to-air missile had an infra-red seeker head that permitted rear-aspect engagements only, a warhead of 13kg, 90kg launch weight and a range from 300 to 3,000 metres. The first R.550s were delivered to Iraq by the summer of 1980: a few were promptly adapted to several MiG-21MFs and the resulting combination then tested in combat. According to Iraqi reports, the Magic quickly proved shorter-ranged than the US- made AIM-9 Sidewinder (the primary short-range air-to-air missile on the Iranian side), but also more reliable and – even if less likely to score a direct hit in combat against a maneuvering target – quite a surprise."

"R.550 Magic: while usually guiding very well, this tended to detonate prematurely. The probable reason was that the glass covering the seeker-head in the front of the missile tended to heat up the longer the flight lasted. By the time the missile entered the hot exhausts from engines of  targeted enemy fighters, the overheating would prompt its proximity fuse to activate. This problem should have been solved on the R.550 Magic Mk.II,"
 

https://en.missilery.info/missile/magic2
referring to the magic1
 "The infrared head, which uses sulfur lead as an infrared detector, has high sensitivity. The detector is cooled with liquid nitrogen."

http://sistemasdearmas.com.br/aam/magic.html
"The first version was the Magic 1 which entered service in 1975. It was considered equivalent to the USAF's AIM-J and the US Navy's AIM-9H." (both of these are rear aspect missiles using cooled PbS detectors) i.e. rear aspect only.

"The PbS sensor was cooled before firing. The sensor searches autonomously and is not pointed at by another sensor (such as radar). After the pilot makes the visual acquisition, the sensor is cooled down. When the target is acquired, it generates a sound indicating that it can be fired." PbS seeker again, also apparently cannot be cued by radar (also in the weps manual). Might wanna let Aerges know before they waste their time to "implement" that. (the 530IR could be cued by radar tho)

"In 1978 the AIM-9L with "all aspect" capability entered service. It was one of the reasons for creating the Magic 2 version with the same capacity, but not the only one as seen before. The Magic 2 entered service in France in 1985."

"The Magic 2 received a more sensitive SAT AD3601 or AD3633 multi-element sensor, with any aspect capability and better counter-countermeasure capability . The sensor could be pointed by other sensors such as radar. Romania's MiG-21 LanceR uses the DASH helmet-mounted sight to aim the missile's sensor."

On September 27, 1987, a new skirmish took place with four Mirage F-1CZs facing a group of MiGs attacking ground forces in Angola. An escort MiG fired an R-23/AA-7 Apex missile that hit Captain Arthur Percy's aircraft. The aircraft was severely damaged and destroyed during landing. Commander Gagiano fired an R550 against a Mig without observing the result as he started to accompany his companion.

The fighting showed that every aspect of capability was needed. The effective range was 3km due to the sensitivity of the sensor. The IR fuze caused the warhead to detonate prematurely and outside the warhead's lethal radius. The South African Magic were withdrawn from service in 1988 and replaced by the V-3C Darter and V-3S Snake (a batch of 100 Pyton III missiles purchased urgently from Israel.


https://opticalengineering.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of-spie/2552/0000/History-of-infrared-optronics-in-France/10.1117/12.218281.full?SSO=1
For the 550 this:
"From 1974 to 1984, more than S 000 units of the MAGIC 1 seeker were produced In 1978, the development of a new more efficient version was launched under the aegis of the DOA for the MAGIC 2. Through the use of a multi-channel detector, the sensitivity attained is one hundred times greater than that of the MAGIC 1. This seeker provides the missile with a target front attack capability at a distance ranging from 8 up to 25 kilometers. This type of seeker has been in production since 1985 with more than 2500 units already manufactured"

At any rate, there are plenty more descriptions of the 550 being rear aspect in various books from the Falkland's conflict as well as the Angolan conflict.  And the 530IR was "limited all aspect". I've sent you the relevant "sekrit" docs to corroborate. Though honestly, anyone with a passing familiarity with IR physics and the history or IR detectors in AAM's should easily understand this. 

Also, if you can actually clarify who actually does missile/weapons development in DCS that would be super helpful for the community to understand so we can send the right stuff to the right people. My understanding is that at this point its ED, though in the past it was 3rd parties. So who should we send fixes/issues to?

 

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Thank you for info.

1. DCS Missiles already have a homer degradation at the low altitudes that increase than lower flying.

2. Now, we are strive to development all weapons at the ED side. But there is one feature. A missile before launch does not exist in the world and the aircraft avionics are engaged in simulation of its aiming with all proper features. It is regarding pointing by sensors, cooling simulation and so on.

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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25 minutes ago, Chizh said:

2. Now, we are strive to development all weapons at the ED side. But there is one feature. A missile before launch does not exist in the world and the aircraft avionics are engaged in simulation of its aiming with all proper features. It is regarding pointing by sensors, cooling simulation and so on.

I gather this applies to all missiles, including 73/27ET (e.g. missing tone) and 9? So 9's modes are actually part of each module and implemented differently?

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1 hour ago, okopanja said:

I gather this applies to all missiles, including 73/27ET (e.g. missing tone) and 9? So 9's modes are actually part of each module and implemented differently?

Yes. It depends of aircraft developer.

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Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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Скажите пожалуйста. МиГ-29 9-12 и 9-51 умеют нести Р-27Т ИРЛ ? 

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1 hour ago, SandMartin said:

Скажите пожалуйста. МиГ-29 9-12 и 9-51 умеют нести Р-27Т ИРЛ ? 

Поздний советский 9-12 мог применять Р-27Т.

Экспортный - нет.

Про 9-51 не знаю, но по моему мнению тоже нет.

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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10 hours ago, Chizh said:

Thank you for info.

1. DCS Missiles already have a homer degradation at the low altitudes that increase than lower flying.

2. Now, we are strive to development all weapons at the ED side. But there is one feature. A missile before launch does not exist in the world and the aircraft avionics are engaged in simulation of its aiming with all proper features. It is regarding pointing by sensors, cooling simulation and so on.

Hopefully thats info to change the missiles to how they should work.

On point number 2 so Aerges would have to change the lock behavior on their side as well as changing the seeker info in the missile lua correct? 

On point one does that apply to both IR and Radar guided missiles? 

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2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Hopefully thats info to change the missiles to how they should work.

On point number 2 so Aerges would have to change the lock behavior on their side as well as changing the seeker info in the missile lua correct? 

All that happens and what indicating BEFORE launch relate aircraft avionics only. Missile physically spawns in the launch moment only.

2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

On point one does that apply to both IR and Radar guided missiles? 

Yes. For both types of ED's missiles. But there are applying varying physical process and limitations.

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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1 hour ago, Chizh said:

Yes. For both types of ED's missiles. But there are applying varying physical process and limitations.

Interesting, so is there a hit probability difference between say an Aim-9B fired toward a lower alt target at low altitude and an Aim9M? Because I can't think of a time where I've used a missile and it tracked the ground instead of the plane. I have seen them go for the sun though. 

(also which one of the many versions of 9M are you guys simulating? Pre 9M-6 or after?)

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1 hour ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

Model says 9M-9 but I doubt it.

Screen_220622_152746.png

Heh, never thought to check the actual 3D skin... 9M-9 it is then 🙂

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8 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Interesting, so is there a hit probability difference between say an Aim-9B fired toward a lower alt target at low altitude and an Aim9M? Because I can't think of a time where I've used a missile and it tracked the ground instead of the plane. I have seen them go for the sun though. 

9B has a lower hit probability in all cases.

9 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

(also which one of the many versions of 9M are you guys simulating? Pre 9M-6 or after?)

We made this missile according to known data without specifying a submodel.

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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9 hours ago, Chizh said:

9B has a lower hit probability in all cases.

We made this missile according to known data without specifying a submodel.

Well there is a pretty big difference in IRCM "effectiveness" vs soviet flares between the first few models (up to -6) and then the subsequent ones. It might be nice to split those subtypes out (early/late) or something for 80's vs 90's and onwards scenarios. 

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