Ракеты в DCS

[Chizh]

If you want a challenge, just take a 9B )

[Harlikwin]

57 minutes ago, Chizh said:

If you want a challenge, just take a 9B )

Lol indeed.

Speaking of IR missiles, when will they stop seeing through clouds? I realize this is related to the fact the clouds don't actually "exist" in the game somehow but its been like over a year at this point. 

 

[okopanja]

Speaking of IR revmap, it would be cool to add effects of air friction heating. E.g. flying at 1.6 Mach at low altotude surely produces enough heat to serve as favorable contrast for many IR missiles to home onto.

Also how quickly do they cool down IRL, once throttle gets on idle?

[Harlikwin]

4 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Speaking of IR revmap, it would be cool to add effects of air friction heating. E.g. flying at 1.6 Mach at low altotude surely produces enough heat to serve as favorable contrast for many IR missiles to home onto.

Also how quickly do they cool down IRL, once throttle gets on idle?

The real answer to that question is "it depends". But yeah skin heating/bow shock are both things that improve contrast for MWIR seekers, not really a big deal for older PbS seekers tho. Engine aspect (where you can see the nozzle from) is also a big deal, if you look at certain "stealthy" designs like the F22/35 etc you will note the nozzle is hidden by the tail surfaces from alot of angles. 

And then you have more modern stuff having IR coatings to prevent unwanted reflections etc.  It would be cool if the new IR model captured stuff like "skyshine" and "ground shine" as well. 

[Chizh]

2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Lol indeed.

Speaking of IR missiles, when will they stop seeing through clouds? I realize this is related to the fact the clouds don't actually "exist" in the game somehow but its been like over a year at this point. 

 

This issue in the plan. But I dont know when we can able to done it.

[okopanja]

I am talking about aerodynamical heating of lead surfaces alone, also I do not thinlk coatings play any role at this.

Here is what I found on the subject:

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/84975/how-much-aerodynamic-heating-do-jetliners-endure

The 2 examples were given for high altitudes. I am pretty sure that at lover altitudes the effect is more pronounced, due to the denser air.

So question for Chizh: will an object flying at 1500-1600 km/h TAS at low alt generate enough heat to guide IR missile at 0 degree aspect(engines obscured)?

[Chizh]

1 hour ago, okopanja said:

So question for Chizh: will an object flying at 1500-1600 km/h TAS at low alt generate enough heat to guide IR missile at 0 degree aspect(engines obscured)?

I can not say definitely now. It is requires some the theory kinetic heating research. 
IIRC MiG-25 at 3M and 50 000 ft was achieve about 200-300 C degrees on the leading edges.

[okopanja]

6 minutes ago, Chizh said:

IIRC MiG-25 at 3M and 50 000 ft was achieve about 200-300 C degrees on the leading edges.

Yes this is what I read in some article interviewing 25/31 pilot some 20 years ago(sorry I can not quote reference). I believe it was 300C degrees and airplane remained hot until landing, so caution had to be made not to touch.

[henshao]

It is not my area of expertise but food for thought:

 

Heating comes from friction of the air, but also eventually the pressure of mach speed;

Foxbat and Foxhound are made primarily of steel, and their temperature limit and dissipation properties would be different from aluminum/composite aircraft;

Another very high temperature aircraft, SR-71, was considered an acceptable target at any aspect for Mig-25's R-40TD missile

Former F-14D pilot "Puck" Howe claims he could track, of all jets, early F-22 in military thrust with the exceptional AN/AAS-42 IRST from long range

Spoiler

 

 

[tavarish palkovnik]

Calculated values and gradients, E-155 (Mig-25) at 22km, at M=2,83

Edited August 9, 2022 by tavarish palkovnik

[GGTharos]

8 hours ago, Chizh said:

I can not say definitely now. It is requires some the theory kinetic heating research. 

I believe that the difference is in the IR spectrum, where if the exhaust is perfectly hidden, IIRC it requires a sensor capable of detecting longer IR wavelengths - so basically an all-aspect missile.   I recall a paper that describes how to compute the intensity of the target based on a number of things, including the emission area (this is significant because if an aircraft and a missile are seem from the front, both heated up to the same temperature, the missile will still have a smaller signature - same idea as fighter vs bomber).

[Flаnker]

К разговору о  Р-27П - она засветилась в зоне конфликта  на Украинском Миг-29С.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Flаnker

[Chizh]

Как понять что это Р-27П?

[okopanja]

Probably from visual similarity...

Edited August 25, 2022 by okopanja
added comment

[Flаnker]

1 минуту назад, Chizh сказал:

Как понять что это Р-27П?

По окраске ГСН (она ярко желтая) и наличию широкого накрашенного металлического ободка около ГСН - характерных признаков Р-27П

[Chizh]

Не аргумент.

[okopanja]

1 minute ago, Chizh said:

Не аргумент.

Is anything know on how these missiles were supposed to work?

How practical would R-27(E)P be today?

An AIR-HARM would require the missile to maintain on specific radar signal (which possibly move laterally) and at the same time have frequent updates to be able to hit target with accuracy.

Attacker illuminating with STT may provide enough update frequency, but what about scan and TWS modes (not to mention AESA)?

E.g. if scan intervals are measures in seconds (e.g. 6-7), this missile would not have enough accuracy to hit the target, unless the target is AWACS.

Another possibility to be used to shoot down the incoming active missiles?

 

[Flаnker]

13 минут назад, Chizh сказал:

Не аргумент.

Т.е. внешний вид ракеты её внешние отличие 27Р не является аргументом? Ну-ну...

[Chizh]

4 minutes ago, Flаnker said:

Т.е. внешний вид ракеты её внешние отличие 27Р не является аргументом? Ну-ну...

Цвет обтекателя и обечайки точно не аргумент.

[Flаnker]

1 минуту назад, Chizh сказал:

Цвет обтекателя и обечайки точно не аргумент.

А как ты тогда объяснишь что цвет ГСН отличается от ГСН Р-27Р и соответствует цвету ГСН Р-27П?

Может тогда приведешь аргументы что это обычная Р-27Р?

[Chizh]

2 hours ago, Flаnker said:

А как ты тогда объяснишь что цвет ГСН отличается от ГСН Р-27Р и соответствует цвету ГСН Р-27П?

Может тогда приведешь аргументы что это обычная Р-27Р?

Цвет это всего лишь краситель.

Я ничего не должен тебе доказывать. Ты попробуй докажи.

[Flаnker]

6 минут назад, Chizh сказал:

Цвет это всего лишь краситель.

В данном случае он точно идентифицирует изделие - так как только у ракет в модификации "П" ГСН ярко желтого  цвета и присутствует характерное металлическое кольцо около ГСН.  

Наверное просто не хочется признавать что изделие вполне себе есть в строевых частях (и у нас и Украины) и используется при ведении БД?

[Chizh]

5 minutes ago, Flаnker said:

В данном случае он точно идентифицирует изделие - так как только у ракет в модификации "П" ГСН ярко желтого  цвета и присутствует характерное металлическое кольцо около ГСН.  

Наверное просто не хочется признавать что изделие вполне себе есть в строевых частях (и у нас и Украины) и используется при ведении БД?

Не аргументировано. Сорри.

[Harlikwin]

On 8/9/2022 at 8:02 AM, GGTharos said:

I believe that the difference is in the IR spectrum, where if the exhaust is perfectly hidden, IIRC it requires a sensor capable of detecting longer IR wavelengths - so basically an all-aspect missile.   I recall a paper that describes how to compute the intensity of the target based on a number of things, including the emission area (this is significant because if an aircraft and a missile are seem from the front, both heated up to the same temperature, the missile will still have a smaller signature - same idea as fighter vs bomber).

Yeah this is basically correct. Its actually a function of contrast at range and the wavelengths you are using and then accounting for atmospheric transmission/absorption in those windows as well as overall target size/emissivity and reflectivity. So for example you are gonna have more absorption in the LWIR band than the MWIR band but you will be able to see "cooler" objects better in LWIR. Typically these days most military TGP's/IRST's are using sensors that see in LWIR or MWIR, or increasingly dual/multiband band sensors (I.e. PIRATE is a dual band IRST) and the tomcat AN/AAS-42 IRST was either MWIR though later LWIR. And of course aircraft signature is going to depend on aspect rather heavily as well as speed which gives rise to airframe heating and at supersonic speeds you also get signal from the bow shock (I've got a neat picture of that somewhere). At any rate anything fast at high altitude is basically the perfect detection case, i.e. you have a perfect contrast background vs "space" which is cold, you have much less atmosphere and humidity to work through, and your target if its fast is giving off a strong signature in the MWIR/LWIR bands. So for example you can see the SR-71 from crazy long distances, but that basically tells you almost nothing of that sensors performance in other use cases. I.e. you get major SNR reductions and false positives when the background is either clouds or looking down at the earth. Or detecting stuff at lower altitudes due to humidity and atmospheric absorption etc. Most early (pre-90's) IRST's had significant issues in look down scenarios or dealing with stuff like clouds because the signal processing tech of the day was basically either non existent or very primitive. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Harlikwin

[Chizh]

42 minutes ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

27ЄП

Как отличить от Р-27ЭР?