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Ракеты в DCS


Chizh

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We know that Kalman's filters are already in the game when it comes to the missile guidance and that there upcoming changes to AIM-120.

However, being involved in a recent dogfight, where along the other CMs the opponent deployed the time-delay cheating (essentially 1 second delay that even reflected in AoA/G diagrams), to defeat 3x73 and 1x77, will there be any plan to make use of Kalman's filters for more accurate prediction of airplane path/extrapolation on client/server side. I believe this would limit the usefulness of time delay cheating.

The red lines mark start end and of his countermeasures (before and after he produces lag). Observe the regularity of jagged spikes.

 

image.png


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При наружном взрыве большая часть поражающего эффекта уходит в воздух, поэтому полкилограмма это очень мало для надежного поражения самолета.

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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Could you please comment on these two items:

  • Weapons. R-27 overshoots target every time in HOJ mode - fixed
  • Weapons. R-27 missiles family and R-77 switched to true proportional navigation

 

1) What does it mean in practice - what guidance is used for HoJ? Will it apply to other missiles, and if not, why not? I am thinking sparrow mostly but there are others.   Will you implement ECM more realistically, so that a dropped lock will also terminate HoJ?  AAM HoJ typically depends on the jammer repeating the appropriate radar signal, rather than the ECM representation that is in DCS today - that means the ECM implementation in FC3 should change.

2) For the second item, what does this mean in practice?  What guidance was used before?

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Can anyone tell me what this means in the patch notes?

Weapons. AIM-9B/P/P5 - added nozzle exit area

Also do the other sidewinders i.e. the Aim-9J/L/M and the Rb24/24J also have this nozzle exit area? 

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7 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Can anyone tell me what this means in the patch notes?

Weapons. AIM-9B/P/P5 - added nozzle exit area
 

Nozzle exit means the jet nozzle area. It was forgotten for those missiles.

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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1 hour ago, Chizh said:

Nozzle exit means the jet nozzle area. It was forgotten for those missiles.

Is this a graphical thing, or it has some functional role in how the missiles work in the game?

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6 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Is this a graphical thing, or it has some functional role in how the missiles work in the game?

No, it is not graphical thing, it is FM data for correct thrust calculation by altitude.

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Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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40 minutes ago, Chizh said:

No, it is not graphical thing, it is FM data for correct thrust calculation by altitude.

Cool thanks. 

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Nozzle exit area indeed goes in calculation of true thrust force of rocket motor, however I'm very sceptic that in this game thrust values are calculated that way, means having pressure ratios pk:pe:pa, factors of adiabatic ''k'' and other values to get thrust coefficients Cf and respectively true thrust.

Why I mean that, maybe I'm wrong and read incorrectly, but when I see that motor of H-29L, for instance, in this simulation is with 132kg of fuel with impulse 208 and it works 5 seconds, while motor of H-29T is with 100kg of fuel with impulse of 148 and it works 6,2 seconds....and those two motors are exactly same in real, and not like these two presented options, then lot of questions rise up plus scepticism. Thrust force taking in consideration pressure in chamber and exit pressure/ambient pressure (means full expansion) can be for this purpose (when have so many approximation why not to take full expansion as common rule) calculated in much more convenient way with only one equitation. 

 

Nozzle exit area beside in upper mentioned, has one more important role and that is drag force in active in passive. I made some text some weeks ago, in simple and understandable way, how nozzle exit area influence on drag coefficients, on sample of 5V55 rocket. Here it is if someone finds it interesting ->

BP-5V55.pdf

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Kh-29 missiles stay on the old dynamics without complex thrust calculations. Various params of T and L variants is mistake, that will be corrected. 

You are right of course that exit area use into drag calculation, but it is not presented in old FM.

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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Always willing to share and help, if and when you get stucked with H-29L/T here are some data for L

 

IMG_2450.jpg

 

Weights of rocket and fuel are in line with ТО и ИЭ, seconds also, total thrust also knowing what kind of fuel is inside, and Cx and Cy are for me in line as well. I made some calculations of mine when dealing with these two rockets and got where similar values. Of course H-29T is with different Cx, Cy can be used as same 

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48 минут назад, FlankerFan35 сказал:

What happened to 27ETs, their seeker range has been demolished, was this intentional and if so, why?

Please provide details. 

Could you put a track?

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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Планируется ли добавить ступень Husky HPRF к ракете AIM-120? В настоящее время он отсутствует. На данный момент такой ступени нет, и ракета сразу же отправляется на Pitbull.

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On 9/21/2022 at 9:14 PM, GGTharos said:

Could you please comment on these two items:

  • Weapons. R-27 overshoots target every time in HOJ mode - fixed
  • Weapons. R-27 missiles family and R-77 switched to true proportional navigation

 

1) What does it mean in practice - what guidance is used for HoJ? Will it apply to other missiles, and if not, why not? I am thinking sparrow mostly but there are others.   Will you implement ECM more realistically, so that a dropped lock will also terminate HoJ?  AAM HoJ typically depends on the jammer repeating the appropriate radar signal, rather than the ECM representation that is in DCS today - that means the ECM implementation in FC3 should change.

2) For the second item, what does this mean in practice?  What guidance was used before?

Hi GGTharos,
1) In HOJ mode used PN, but instead of closing velocity used missile inertial velocity(assume we can't measure closing velocity due to jamming). Yep, it will be applied for some other missiles based on old missile API.

AIM-7 was switched to new API a long time ago, so it uses PN in HOJ and normal mode since switching. 

Can't promise anything about ECM. There are many difficulties from both implementation and game design points of view.

2) That means old missile API by default use parallel navigation in normal mode and pure pursuit in HOJ. There was fundamental reason for such choose of guidance law. At the moment proportional navigation may be enabled for any missile if needed.

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6 hours ago, Маэстро said:

Hi GGTharos,
1) In HOJ mode used PN, but instead of closing velocity used missile inertial velocity(assume we can't measure closing velocity due to jamming). Yep, it will be applied for some other missiles based on old missile API.

AIM-7 was switched to new API a long time ago, so it uses PN in HOJ and normal mode since switching. 

Can't promise anything about ECM. There are many difficulties from both implementation and game design points of view.

2) That means old missile API by default use parallel navigation in normal mode and pure pursuit in HOJ. There was fundamental reason for such choose of guidance law. At the moment proportional navigation may be enabled for any missile if needed.

Thank You Maestro, I appreciate the reponse.

I understand the choices for #2, but I think it is a reasonable argument to use simple PN - either you can guide with all the benefits of PN (like a heat seeker) or you cannot guide at all.  Maybe ECM increases scintillation effects.

I know you won't be making a lot of changes to ECM so may I make one suggestion to the missile guidance in HoJ:

1) Assume Vc is available, because we are only jamming range.  Instead, make all range information invalid (eg. feed the missile 'range is 1km or 10km, whatever works best as a default) if the missile is launched without initial range knowledge (ie. launched in HoJ to begin with).  This would get rid of maneuvering optimizations for long range shots.

2) You have a scintillation parameter for the miss distance which you increase when the target gets close to ground etc.  Please increase it in the presence of ECM, even in 'burn through' range.  Ideally more modern missiles should be less affected (less miss distance) and more ideally this should also depend on the ECM technology level, which means some sort of 'tech level' attribute would have to added to missiles and ECM systems - this without modeling different ECM techniques.

3) Actually, increasing miss distance in the presence of chaff would also be good ... no need for the missile to completely change targets.


Edited by GGTharos

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Возможно ли сделать крылатые ракеты отдельным юнитом в DCS? Ведь по факту это самолет, который следует по заданным ППМ. Дело в том, что сейчас с КР нередко случается беда - они врезаются в деревья и ЛЭП, что легко исправить указанием соответствующей высоты для ППМ. Ну и плюс появится возможность создавать для них непрямолинейный маршрут.

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41 минуту назад, Lisovsky сказал:

Возможно ли сделать крылатые ракеты отдельным юнитом в DCS? Ведь по факту это самолет, который следует по заданным ППМ. Дело в том, что сейчас с КР нередко случается беда - они врезаются в деревья и ЛЭП, что легко исправить указанием соответствующей высоты для ППМ. Ну и плюс появится возможность создавать для них непрямолинейный маршрут.

Создание маршрутов для КР записано у нас в хотелках. Сделаем как руки дойдут.

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Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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Found this article that has some NATO codenames for Chinese missiles, namely CH-AA-7 for the PL-12/SD-10, was wondering if anyone can verify if this code is correct and if so, would ED add it to SD-10 tag on kill feed as SD-10 (CH-AA-7) similar to how R-27 comes up as R-27ER (AA-10 Alamo) or R-77 (AA-12 Adder).

China fires longer-range AAM at export market (iiss.org)

 

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1 час назад, FlankerFan35 сказал:

Found this article that has some NATO codenames for Chinese missiles, namely CH-AA-7 for the PL-12/SD-10, was wondering if anyone can verify if this code is correct and if so, would ED add it to SD-10 tag on kill feed as SD-10 (CH-AA-7) similar to how R-27 comes up as R-27ER (AA-10 Alamo) or R-77 (AA-12 Adder).

China fires longer-range AAM at export market (iiss.org)

 

Adding a second name for missiless makes sense when it is common. In the case of Chinese missiles, as far as I know, the whole world uses Chinese export names, such as PL-12, for example.

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Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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17 hours ago, Chizh said:

Adding a second name for missiless makes sense when it is common. In the case of Chinese missiles, as far as I know, the whole world uses Chinese export names, such as PL-12, for example.

This makes sense but these codes first showed up as far as I can tell publicly in 2021 so it's hard to say, I would guess in NATO training pilots are learning the codes though.

I know we don't have these other weapons in DCS at the moment I think but we have PL-12/SD-10 (CH-AA-7), PL-15/15E (CH-AA-10) and PL-10/10E as (CH-AA-9)

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Делал миссию для себя по перехвату ракеты skud ,так он отказывается стрелять.Баг или я что-то не так делаю в редакторе?

Модули:UH-1,ГС 3,МиГ 21,A-10c,F-14b,F-16 Viper,F\A -18,Supercarrier.Mi-24P Hind

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30 минут назад, pashtet сказал:

Делал миссию для себя по перехвату ракеты skud ,так он отказывается стрелять.Баг или я что-то не так делаю в редакторе?

Скад должен находиться на ровной горизонтальной поверхности. Точка цели должна быть на расстоянии от 100 до 300 км.

Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу

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