The AH-64 Apache Thread

[159th_Viper]

The same reason pilots do anything, obviously: because it sounds cool.

 

Duh. :smilewink:

 

They should be called 'Handers' then, what with all the inverted-dive-negative-G hand movements:

 

ewzwvAnFFRE

 

 

:P

[Nightmare515]

Thanks for your service, Air Force here. Where have you been stationed at?

 

Thanks for your service as well.

 

I was prior enlisted stationed at Knox and Carson, Afghanistan deployment as a ground pounder, flight school at Rucker.

 

I'm still a baby pilot fresh out of the program. How about you?

Edited May 25, 2014 by Nightmare515

[Nightmare515]

Not the biggest or most interesting question I suppose, but what's up with the American military's seeming obsession of calling pilots "drivers"?

 

haha not really sure why we call ourselves that. Not sure when that term started I have a friend who flew Wild Weasels in Vietnam and he called himself a 105 driver so I guess the term was around back then too.

[Nightmare515]

Welcome,And Thank You very mich for your service and willing to give feedback/knowledge to The DCS Community:thumbup:Cheers!

Can you say what block/version of AH-64 You've flown? And have you flown Combat missions?

Thank You

 

Thank you

 

I've flown the block I version 6.2 and the block II version 13.1 and 13.2.

 

No combat missions yet I'm a brand new pilot. I have combat experience as an enlisted ground pounder in Afghanistan before I made the switch to fly helicopters.

[Nightmare515]

Lol, you should contact ED and help them bring us an Apache sim

 

I'd love to be able to help do that. ED does a great job at what they do. A buddy of mine flies A-10s and never really played any sims or anything before. We got together one day and I let him play LOMAC just to see what he thought of it. His words were "holy **** is this even legal?!" haha. He was a bit unnerved by it.

 

Guy grew up in a shoe box or something I tried to tell him that people have been making realistic flight sims for years. He always thought it was just MSFS and things like that he never knew they made military flight sims.

 

He then went on a rant about how its dangerous to do that and why do they have to use real avionics since nobody knows the difference anyway and all that stuff.

 

Which translates to a real A-10 pilot thinks your flight sim is too realistic for comfort. Which again translates to, ED does a darn good job lol.

[Akki]

Welcome Nightware515, is amazing to have you around here.

Please let me ask two questions:

1) Did you fly the DCS KA-50? if yes, what do you think about it?

2) Did you know there is an Apache sim being developed outside DCS called Combat Helo? http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=50740

 

Thank you in advance

[Sceptre]

Nightmare, did your friend that flies the A-10s play DCS A-10C? LOMAC is very old now

[cichlidfan]

Nightmare, did your friend that flies the A-10s play DCS A-10C? LOMAC is very old now

 

It sounds like the realism in the A-10C would have sent him running to his base security folks to warn them. ;) Especially if he saw some of the pits people are building/using.

 

No offense intended.

[Nightmare515]

Welcome Nightware515, is amazing to have you around here.

Please let me ask two questions:

1) Did you fly the DCS KA-50? if yes, what do you think about it?

2) Did you know there is an Apache sim being developed outside DCS called Combat Helo? http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=50740

 

Thank you in advance

 

Thanks

 

I've flown DCS Black Shark a few times. I really enjoyed it. Honestly the main reason I picked it up was to see how in the world an attack helicopter could only have one pilot. We have our hands full with 2 people I couldn't imagine doing it with one. It seemed "easier" to fly and I'm wondering if it was simplified because its a video game or is it a pretty accurate representation of the flight model in real life. I would image that it has plenty of systems that assist the pilot in flying seeing how he is the only one in there. For one thing firing rockets accurately in itself is hard to do. We usually have one person firing and the other maneuvering the aircraft. Trying to fire rockets AND fly is extremely hard to do. I was able to do it in DCS Black Shark pretty easily but I can never do it very well in real life. I'm sure part of that was also because I knew there were no real consequences if I got too fixated on a target and forgot to pull up in the game haha.

 

Would you happen to know how accurate of a sim it is in reference to real life? Im curious. If it's a pretty good representation then I can understand now how they can get away with only one pilot. Thats pretty cool.

 

I didn't know about Combat Helo I'll have to check that out thanks.

[Sceptre]

Black Shark 2 is updated a lot since the original and from what we've been told it's the most realistic attack helicopter sim on the civilian market.

[Nightmare515]

Nightmare, did your friend that flies the A-10s play DCS A-10C? LOMAC is very old now

 

No he only tried LOMAC. I just happened to have a copy of LOMAC thats why I let him try that one. I've never personally tried DCS A-10C, I'm assuming its even better?

[Phantom88]

Nightmare 515,Have you tried The Belsimtek Huey or Mi-8 in DCS World? I'd be very interested in your opinion on their flight model.

Thank You.

[Flagrum]

Thanks

 

I've flown DCS Black Shark a few times. I really enjoyed it. Honestly the main reason I picked it up was to see how in the world an attack helicopter could only have one pilot. We have our hands full with 2 people I couldn't imagine doing it with one. It seemed "easier" to fly and I'm wondering if it was simplified because its a video game or is it a pretty accurate representation of the flight model in real life. I would image that it has plenty of systems that assist the pilot in flying seeing how he is the only one in there. For one thing firing rockets accurately in itself is hard to do. We usually have one person firing and the other maneuvering the aircraft. Trying to fire rockets AND fly is extremely hard to do. I was able to do it in DCS Black Shark pretty easily but I can never do it very well in real life. I'm sure part of that was also because I knew there were no real consequences if I got too fixated on a target and forgot to pull up in the game haha.

 

Would you happen to know how accurate of a sim it is in reference to real life? Im curious. If it's a pretty good representation then I can understand now how they can get away with only one pilot. Thats pretty cool.

 

I didn't know about Combat Helo I'll have to check that out thanks.

The flight characteristics of the BlackShark are supposed to be really close to the real thing - as close as a software can get. Of course, nobody of us ever flew one in RL to be able to objectively compare it, but given the track record of ED, I believe them that.

 

The autopilot and stabilization system of the BlackShark help immensely to fly it stable. But I guess, you are right, the no-consequences part might play a huge role in this, too. If I crash my 40 $ Blackshark or someone else a 18,000,000 Apache .... hrmmmm ... :o)

 

Btw, you really should have your friend take a tour with the DCS A-10C - his eyes will fall out ... :D

[SyntaxError]

No he only tried LOMAC. I just happened to have a copy of LOMAC thats why I let him try that one. I've never personally tried DCS A-10C, I'm assuming its even better?

If your A-10 pilot friend was worried after trying LOMAC, he'll have a breakdown after flying the DCS A-10C. Would be interesting to hear his thoughts if you ever manage to get him on it.

[Nightmare515]

Nightmare 515,Have you tried The Belsimtek Huey or Mi-8 in DCS World? I'd be very interested in your opinion on their flight model.

Thank You.

 

No unfortunately the only sims I have tried from the DCS world are LOMAC and DCS Black Shark.

 

In regards to flight models I may be able to give a bit of insight on helo sims in general. The thing with helo sims is that is it very hard to accurately portray a helicopter in a simulator. Not to sound cheesy but they are one of those aircraft that you have to "feel" and sort of become one with when you are flying, especially during low speed and hovering flight. There is a phase in flight school where they completely black out the entire cockpit and you are forced to fly with the FLIR video sensor mounted on the nose and the video displayed in the monocle over your right eye. You have to feel what the aircraft is doing for the most part because your entire world is reduced to an image the diameter of a paper towel roll. The actual physics can be pretty close in sims such as turn rates and whatnot but it's hard to accurately portray anything else.

 

Unlike fixed wing aircraft helicopters hate flying and they tend to do everything in their power to try and fall out of the sky. They don't handle rough air as well and they shake like crazy while flying. In a jet, for example, you can set the throttle and keep the wings level and the aircraft is going to go that direction and stay going that direction. In a helicopter if you tilt the nose to your desired attitude and set the collective and let the controls go it will go that direction for a few seconds and then start either climbing or falling out of the sky or trying to roll one way or all of the above. Did I mention they shake a lot? lol

 

A pretty close experience would be to go throw a few pairs of old boots in your dryer then sit on top of it and bounce yourself up and down every few seconds while 2 of your friends shove you back and forth.

 

Thats why in flight school they put you right in a real helicopter from day 1 and don't let you start off in simulators like our fixed wing counterparts. Its just not the same at all. I can honestly say that many people who fly sims like DCS could probably hop in a real like A-10 or a MiG and start it up and take off and fly around a bit if you aren't trying to pull high G maneuvers or anything. Might not be able to land too well but you could fly around.

 

I asked my first instructor pilot why we don't use sims to learn at first and he said "I could let you play around with MSFS for awhile and you could probably take off and fly a pattern and land a Cesna in real life after a few days, but you could be the best simulator Bell 201 chopper pilot in the world with 20 years of sim experience if I put you in a real Bell 201 helicopter you would literally crash and die trying to takeoff".

Edited May 25, 2014 by Nightmare515

[Sceptre]

Wow, very interesting post thanks for that. I had no idea choppers were like that as my only real life flight experience is from gliders and cessenas!

[Flagrum]

No unfortunately the only sims I have tried from the DCS world are LOMAC and DCS Black Shark.

 

In regards to flight models I may be able to give a bit of insight on helo sims in general. The thing with helo sims is that is it very hard to accurately portray a helicopter in a simulator. Not to sound cheesy but they are one of those aircraft that you have to "feel" and sort of become one with when you are flying, especially during low speed and hovering flight. There is a phase in flight school where they completely black out the entire cockpit and you are forced to fly with the FLIR video sensor mounted on the nose and the video displayed in the monocle over your right eye. You have to feel what the aircraft is doing for the most part because your entire world is reduced to an image the diameter of a paper towel roll. The actual physics can be pretty close in sims such as turn rates and whatnot but it's hard to accurately portray anything else.

 

Unlike fixed wing aircraft helicopters hate flying and they tend to do everything in their power to try and fall out of the sky. They don't handle rough air as well and they shake like crazy while flying. In a jet, for example, you can set the throttle and keep the wings level and the aircraft is going to go that direction and stay going that direction. In a helicopter if you tilt the nose to your desired attitude and set the collective and let the controls go it will go that direction for a few seconds and then start either climbing or falling out of the sky or trying to roll one way or all of the above. Did I mention they shake a lot? lol

 

A pretty close experience would be to go throw a few pairs of old boots in your dryer then sit on top of it and bounce yourself up and down every few seconds while 2 of your friends shove you back and forth.

 

Thats why in flight school they put you right in a real helicopter from day 1 and don't let you start off in simulators like our fixed wing counterparts. Its just not the same at all. I can honestly say that many people who fly sims like DCS could probably hop in a real like A-10 or a MiG and start it up and take off and fly around a bit if you aren't trying to pull high G maneuvers or anything. Might not be able to land too well but you could fly around.

 

I asked my first instructor pilot why we don't use sims to learn at first and he said "I could let you play around with MSFS for awhile and you could probably take off and fly a pattern and land a Cesna in real life after a few days, but you could be the best simulator Bell 201 chopper pilot in the world with 20 years of sim experience if I put you in a real Bell 201 helicopter you would literally crash and die trying to takeoff".

Yes, sims, no matter how good they are, can never really replicate the realy experiences. Maybe one of those with moving cabins can get a bit closer to real life. We all are aware of these limitations.

 

But even - or especially - then, I too, would be interested in your opinion about the DCS Huey. Flying that helo is quite different from "driving" the BlackShark. A "bare metal" helo, were you certainly can at least imagine a bit better of how the real thing experience would be. If you're not careful, it DOES wiggle and wobble, shake and turn and if you get distracted for a second, it will clandestinely try to kill you, lol. But it is great fun, tho.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Flagrum

[cichlidfan]

But even - or especially - then, I too, would be interested in your opinion about the DCS Huey. ... If you're not careful, it DOES wiggle and wobble, shake and turn and if you get distracted for a second, it will clandestinely try to kill you, lol. But it is great fun, tho.

 

Agreed. That 'it wants to kill me' feeling, is one aspect of the DCS Huey that makes me think it might be fairly realistic.

[Nightmare515]

Yes, sims, no matter how good they are, can never really replicate the realy experiences. Maybe one of those with moving cabins can get a bit closer to real life. We all are aware of these limitations.

 

But even - or especially - then, I too, would be interested in your opinion about the DCS Huey. Flying that helo is quite different from "driving" the BlackShark. A "bare metal" helo, were you certainly can at least imagine a bit better of how the real thing experience would be. If you're not careful, it DOES wiggle and wobble, shake and turn and if you get distracted for a second, it will clandestinely try to kill you, lol. But it is great fun, tho.

 

We had the full motion sims in flight school that we used for a about a week or so. They are of course better than the non motion ones but even still it's not really "the same".

 

There was always a running gag that if you can fly in real life then you can't fly the sim and if you can fly the sim you can't fly in real life lol. It's always funny watching guys with like 5,000 flight hours try to hop in and fly the sim around and they are hovering all over the place and crashing and come out cussing up a storm lol.

 

But if DCS Huey gives you that feeling like its trying to secretly kill you then it's doing its job well as a sim. Thats pretty accurate. Sounds like DCS has done another great job again.

 

I'll try to get my stuff out of storage and try out some of the new sims. I've never flown in a Huey so I wouldn't really be able to know how the flight model compares but yeah bare bones helo's are much different than combat helos with all of the flight control assistance and stability control and whatnot.

 

One of the hardest things about learning how to fly the 64 was learning how to STOP flying. We start off flying Bell 206's (TH-67) which is a bare bones helicopter with none of the fancy computer stability control and all that. Getting into the 64 we all still wanted to fly so we kept moving all the controls and trying to fly like we were used to with the Bell's.

 

The words of my instructor still ring in my ears to this day. "We pay millions of dollars for all these computer stability controls to help us fly. The helicopter itself can fly better than you can now stop touching ****!" lol

Edited May 25, 2014 by Nightmare515

[Nightmare515]

Wow, very interesting post thanks for that. I had no idea choppers were like that as my only real life flight experience is from gliders and cessenas!

 

They don't shake like that all the time but a good majority of the time they can have you bouncing around. In normal perfect no wind no turbulence conditions they are smooth. Not airplane smooth but more of a vibration like a massage chair. Now hit a few downdrafts or updrafts they can have you feeling like you are in a washing machine. They shake bad on final approach to landing as well.

[Phantom88]

:thumbup:Thanks for your insight,much appreciated:thumbup:And Happy Memorial Day.

[cichlidfan]

I'll try to get my stuff out of storage and try out some of the new sims.

 

Once you get your stuff set up, drop me a PM and I will treat you to whichever module you like.

 

Thanks for your recollections and perspective. :thumbup:

[Flagrum]

They don't shake like that all the time but a good majority of the time they can have you bouncing around. In normal perfect no wind no turbulence conditions they are smooth. Not airplane smooth but more of a vibration like a massage chair. Now hit a few downdrafts or updrafts they can have you feeling like you are in a washing machine. They shake bad on final approach to landing as well.

Sounds like a Huey ... :o)

 

After reading this and thinking about your previous question ... yes, the flight characteristics of the BlackShark are supposed to be close to reality. But the flight modelling of the Huey might be even a bit closer to reality.

 

The DCS Blackshark usually flies like on rails - due to its stability augmention and autopilot stuff ... no rattling at all ... ever (except when entering VRS :o)

 

But then, the DCS Blackshark was made ... when? 2008? And I bet, the developers gained some more experience in the mean time as well (I think the Huey devs are - partly - the same persons that worked on the Blackshark back then). The Huey rattles and shakes on final approach and if an Apache does that as well to some degree, then why wouldn't a Blackshark, too?

[Akki]

Thanks

 

I've flown DCS Black Shark a few times. I really enjoyed it. Honestly the main reason I picked it up was to see how in the world an attack helicopter could only have one pilot. We have our hands full with 2 people I couldn't imagine doing it with one. It seemed "easier" to fly and I'm wondering if it was simplified because its a video game or is it a pretty accurate representation of the flight model in real life. I would image that it has plenty of systems that assist the pilot in flying seeing how he is the only one in there. For one thing firing rockets accurately in itself is hard to do. We usually have one person firing and the other maneuvering the aircraft. Trying to fire rockets AND fly is extremely hard to do. I was able to do it in DCS Black Shark pretty easily but I can never do it very well in real life. I'm sure part of that was also because I knew there were no real consequences if I got too fixated on a target and forgot to pull up in the game haha.

 

Would you happen to know how accurate of a sim it is in reference to real life? Im curious. If it's a pretty good representation then I can understand now how they can get away with only one pilot. Thats pretty cool.

 

I didn't know about Combat Helo I'll have to check that out thanks.

 

When I came to DCS World the DCS-KA50 was already in the scene, but I read that DCS worked very closely with Kamov in the process. Those of us that were impressed for the "difficulty" of the Blackshark 2, were later surprised of how sensitive are Huey and Mi-8 with inputs and how amazing are the autopilots in the Ka50 in helping the driver sustaining a hover. If we believe in how DCS do business, you can be sure that is a top level representation of the real flying model of the helicopter, based on real data and people involved in the project that has real-life contact with the Ka50 as you are with the Apache.

 

I'm curious to know your flying sim hardware and if you find or not any similarity with the real equipment that you use everyday. For example, do you use your joystick at your side? and your collective is a throttle?

 

By the way, I think this is a nice community and very eager to help in almost every subject related to simulations but they really try to gang on you if we don't use the search function ;). I told you this because there are countless threads/polls out there related to discussions about Apache (this or that version do we need), the Kamov, the A-10C (for your friend) and almost every subject. If you need any help please ask. I will always try to help. :thumbup:

[Nightmare515]

Sounds like a Huey ... :o)

 

After reading this and thinking about your previous question ... yes, the flight characteristics of the BlackShark are supposed to be close to reality. But the flight modelling of the Huey might be even a bit closer to reality.

 

The DCS Blackshark usually flies like on rails - due to its stability augmention and autopilot stuff ... no rattling at all ... ever (except when entering VRS :o)

 

But then, the DCS Blackshark was made ... when? 2008? And I bet, the developers gained some more experience in the mean time as well (I think the Huey devs are - partly - the same persons that worked on the Blackshark back then). The Huey rattles and shakes on final approach and if an Apache does that as well to some degree, then why wouldn't a Blackshark, too?

 

Hmm you know I'm not sure why the Blackshark doesn't shake on final. I'm no expert on aerodynamics (I know enough to pass flight school lol) but I wonder if it might have something to do with that coaxial rotor system? Helos shake on final when passing through ETL due to the turbulent airflow that the main and tail rotor systems are operating in. I can make a guess and say maybe since the Blackshark has the dual rotors spinning in opposite directions it can counteract the turbulent air and it has no tail rotor that has to spin in turbulent air at those low speeds.

 

Again thats just a guess I honestly have no idea I could be way off.

 

Ill ask some people I know who are way smarter than I am on this subject maybe they can explain it.