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CCRP on moving targets?


sgibson
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You can CCRP them just fine with dumb bombs, all you need to do is lead the target. Not hard at all. Actually hitting the target however...

 

The only way to bomb a moving target using CCRP is with Laser Guided Munitions. Aim ahead of the target, drop the bomb, move the reticle onto the target once the laser kicks in. Doesn´t work with dumb bombs or GPS guided ones though, unless you score a lucky hit.

- Two miles of road lead nowhere, two miles of runway lead everywhere -

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Why not aim moving target with TGP using laser designator and "point" track mode? TGP will follow the target wherever it goes. I thought it is a standard procedure for moving targets. I recommend GBU-12 for such targets. You can drop it from 12k feet and activate laser 10-12 seconds before impact.


Edited by Marklar

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Why not aim moving target with TGP using laser designator and "point" track mode? TGP will follow the target wherever it goes.

If your target moves fast enough, your bomb will fall short using that method. Hence the need to lead the target in order to drop the bomb. Shortly before the laser kicks in you can move the reticle onto the target using point track mode.

- Two miles of road lead nowhere, two miles of runway lead everywhere -

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Why not aim moving target with TGP using laser designator and "point" track mode? TGP will follow the target wherever it goes. I thought it is a standard procedure for moving targets. I recommend GBU-12 for such targets. You can drop it from 12k feet and activate laser 10-12 seconds before impact.

It will only work if the target is moving away from you. If the target is moving towards you, it will miss. Your best bet is to come in fast at 1500-2000ft in a shallow dive and CCIP them with an LDGP, HDGP or CBU-87/97.

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I was talking about dropping dumb bombs in CCRP mode on moving targets - sorry for the confusion

 

The computer should be able to anticipate the vectors of the moving target that is locked in the TGP and place the CCRP release point correpondigly.

 

This worked in Falcon F-16 (as far as I remember). But Im not sure if it was possible due to the A-G radar.

 

Now Im wondering if that simply doesn't work in an A-10 or it is not implemented right?

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No such capability exists in real life on the A-10, or on the F-16 or any other aircraft to my knowledge.

 

I don't recall any such feature in any version of Falcon I've even flown either.

 

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No such capability exists in real life on the A-10, or on the F-16 or any other aircraft to my knowledge.

SDB II (GBU-53) will provide it but right now there's some ability with some variants of the Paveway and AASM HAMMER but they require laser designation. It could be argued that the release point of the SDB II isn't really that important at all.

 

Some other cool stuff like SABER, Viper Strike and Scorpion will do the same thing.


Edited by marcos
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I was talking about dropping dumb bombs in CCRP mode on moving targets - sorry for the confusion

 

The computer should be able to anticipate the vectors of the moving target that is locked in the TGP and place the CCRP release point correpondigly.

 

This worked in Falcon F-16 (as far as I remember). But Im not sure if it was possible due to the A-G radar.

 

Now Im wondering if that simply doesn't work in an A-10 or it is not implemented right?

There is no correction for moving targets with dumb bombs AFAIK because they are rarely used in CCRP mode on moving targets. By 'rarely' I probably mean 'never'.

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No such capability exists in real life on the A-10, or on the F-16 or any other aircraft to my knowledge.

 

I don't recall any such feature in any version of Falcon I've even flown either.

 

Here I come again with Keith Rosenkranz (F-16) stories of locking movers in GMT radar and hitting them in CCRP mode with Mk82. I thought about the same thing while reading the book. Was standard procedure for the F-16 dropping from 15k ft or even higher.

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why not GUN moving targets, and make use of the 20 kt indices instead??

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Here I come again with Keith Rosenkranz (F-16) stories of locking movers in GMT radar and hitting them in CCRP mode with Mk82. I thought about the same thing while reading the book. Was standard procedure for the F-16 dropping from 15k ft or even higher.

 

And where do those stories imply that the attack computer(s) adjust for target movement? It's perfectly possible to do without any magic computer helping you.

 

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Isn't this why mavericks and paveways came into existence?

 

Pretty sure the only reliable way to bomb a moving target with dumb bombs is to get down and dirty in the mud, hence the need for alternative guided ordnance when down and dirty equal dumb and dead.


Edited by P*Funk

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so is it possible on F-16 to drop dumb bombs in CCRP on moving targets? I really don't remember...

 

the chance that you will hit a moving target with a dumb bomb in ccrp mode is very very very small because you must estimate where your moving target is when your bomb is hitting.

 

So it's totaly pure luck.

 

Normaly you use ccrp mode with dumb bombs if you attack a big static target.

 

For moving targets like a car / tank which is driving on a road or off-road you should use guided weapons(laser guided bombs or maveriks ).

You also can use dumb bombs in ccip mode but that can be dangerous


Edited by tobaschi
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And where do those stories imply that the attack computer(s) adjust for target movement? It's perfectly possible to do without any magic computer helping you.

Sure, but I wondered about the CCRP mode for moving targets. Actually I think it should work fine, as long as the closure rate is constantly measured by the system, which is the case afaik (doesn´t the CC stand for that?).

 

What defines the realease point of the Mk82 is the closure reate and the relative vektor of closure and height. So this values don´t care if the target moves or not and the CCRP should well work for lead-drops of dumb bombs on moving targets or not? As long as the target doesn´t change speed and direction after release of the bomb of course.


Edited by SNAFU

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Sure, but I wondered about the CCRP mode for moving targets. Actually I think it should work fine, as long as the closure rate is constantly measured by the system, which is the case afaik (doesn´t the CC stand for that?).

 

What defines the realease point of the Mk82 is the closure reate and the relative vektor of closure and height. So this values don´t care if the target moves or not and the CCRP should well work for lead-drops of dumb bombs on moving targets or not? As long as the target doesn´t change speed and direction after release of the bomb of course.

 

The reference frame used by the CCRP algorithm is geodetic, i.e. fixed to the ground.

 

For your idea to work you'd have to calculate the release in the moving reference frame of the target. Although this is feasible, it is not a feature in the A-10.

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I see. In the A-10 the laser would have to measure the distance constantly, but distance and coordinates are computed by angles of the TGP and position and attitude of the plane only in relation to a 2d map. The position of the SPI doesn´t consider the terrain (is acutally on 2d) unless u fire the laser, right? At this point the actual height of the SPI is calculated by the distance and the SPI gets 3D.

 

But the F-16 has the radar, which would make it easier to compute the relative closure, distance and vektor and not only relate the planes attitude and position to a fixed coordinate.

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I see. In the A-10 the laser would have to measure the distance constantly, but distance and coordinates are computed by angles of the TGP and position and attitude of the plane only in relation to a 2d map. The position of the SPI doesn´t consider the terrain (is acutally on 2d) unless u fire the laser, right? At this point the actual height of the SPI is calculated by the distance and the SPI gets 3D.

 

But the F-16 has the radar, which would make it easier to compute the relative closure, distance and vektor and not only relate the planes attitude and position to a fixed coordinate.

Hi SNAFU

 

There are many radar equipped aircraft such as the F-16, F/A-18, AV-8B+, F-15K etc that have GMTT (ground moving target tracking), even the venerable A-6 Intruder had an AMTI (airborne moving target indicator) mode. These modes allow the tracking of moving targets and also furnish the weapons release computer with necessary information to calculate a weapons release solution that compensates for target movement. So essentially the system displays a release point that leads the target.

 

The laser from a TGP simply provides ranging information, target velocity is not known so an intercept aim-point release can't be established.

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  • 1 month later...
I was talking about dropping dumb bombs in CCRP mode on moving targets - sorry for the confusion

 

The computer should be able to anticipate the vectors of the moving target that is locked in the TGP and place the CCRP release point correpondigly.

 

This worked in Falcon F-16 (as far as I remember). But Im not sure if it was possible due to the A-G radar.

 

Now Im wondering if that simply doesn't work in an A-10 or it is not implemented right?

 

Only example I've personally seen was a video of an F-16CG bombing a moving van in Iraq.

 

The video was a little grainy but it looked like he dropped a GBU-12 at RMin from 15,000 to ensure the bomb would not fall short of the target. Van was moving along pretty steadily in a rural area (25-35 mph.) not sure what the outcome would have been using dumb bombs.

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  • 1 month later...

I don't think the idea of using non-laser guided bombs on moving targets is 'just luck' or 'trying to put a square peg in a round hole'.

 

The single mission called 'Surrounded' has a JTAC tasking you to take out numerous convoys with CBU-105s. They are IAMs admittedly and not totally dumb but you are only allowed to realease these in CCRP mode (AFAIK) and therefore must use judgement to set your SPI just the right distance ahead of the target convoy according to your chosen HoF.

 

I daresay it takes a lot of practice and I've only pulled it off once or twice so far but surely this must be a common skill for pilots to learn? I mean obviously laser-guided would be preferred but I doubt ED would set up one of the missions like this if it were such a silly idea (or am i just being naive?)

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Guest Izoul123

Regarding 105's/CCRP on fast moving columns....this is something I've played with often, it's my favorite toy :)

 

I suppose in theory, you would be able to say have a fixed orbit at say alt 20k with TGP point mode following a moving target, then zoom out to the maximum field of view TGP setting, note TGP field of view bracket range (not distance to target I mean), immediately switch to area mode and count seconds for time it takes for the vehicle to move off the TGP bracket. Take this time to rough estimate vehicle moving speed, then reacquire target in point mode, then slew forward x distance for approx point for the CBU105 to make it's happy spindles of parachute joy meet up in a timely manner with the convoy? Even then it's still a crap shoot because it assumes your 'rough' math was spot on, the vehicles keep moving at same speed/direction, but it's probably as good as you can get in this specific situation.

 

I don't think there is a way to get actual ground target travel speed data in the A10 is there? If so I can't believe I missed it if so, please enlighten me and I'll have a 'doh' moment (aside from real life JTAC/Drones/etc, I mean A10 solo simulation setting)

 

I've always just 'guesstimated' lol and let the bombs fly.

Usually things are happening to fast for me to attempt jotting an equation down, so that's how I've done it on fast moving targets with CCRP CBU105's when I've had no other preferable weapons to attack with. Sometimes my 'guesstimate' worked. Other times no. This probably is more of a question towards the "what if scenario" simulation vs real life practice. I dunno, maybe they do train for this...I'm not an A10 pilot in real life. :cry:


Edited by Izoul123
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