476th vFG, 76th vFS "Battle Book"

[roob]

Thanks for sharing!

[WildBillKelsoe]

eddie, could you post illustration for one of the figures? like how to execute the 'box' pattern of attack?

[Eddie]

Not sure I understand what you're asking for. What do you mean by box pattern? The only thing I can think you mean is a range pattern used in training, which isn't really relevant.

[Tord Hoppe]

You reference your Weapons School for more in depth descriptions on the parameters and how to use them. Is that info available somewhere so that others can take a look at them? While I understand the basic info about altitudes and DSMS settings I don´t get how AOD, IHP, IAA, MILS/APP is used. Also, are H/T and XW only used for a given planned situation where the current weather over the target area is known?

[WildBillKelsoe]

I meant the flying itself to the pickle. I have an AOD of 1783 feet from target, yet I don't know when to be pointing my TVV at the AOD for a 15 ° dive pattern. Is it before, or after rollout. Hell I don't even know the proper procedure to roll-out, let alone roll-in.

 

I want to achieve an IPP of 64 mils, and 204 mils on release. However, mils is something I'll never understand, in the sims in general. I mean if I use a rifle it would be easy, but with aircraft, I just don't know anything.

 

If you read Andy Bush's article about the turn radius, you'll understand what I'm after. The turn radius. I was looking for a workshop or hands-on for that delivery pattern.

 

Here is what I mean.

 

 

 

would you post one of those 1 min vids for a planned attack with the following parameters:

 

Aircraft GW: 38,000 lbs

Temp: 10 °C

Time to Final: 5 sec

Fuzing N/T

Fuze arming time 4 sec

Dive angle : 15 °

Release mode: SGL

Release qty: 1

Mils @ release : 204 mils

Release altitude : 1300

Release airspeed: 325

Abort altitude: 1250

Roll-out Altitude : 2000

Roll-out Airspeed: 290

Roll-out IPP: 64 mils

Roll-out AOD: 1783 feet

Base Altitude: 2400

Base distance: 7500 feet

XW '/kt: 8.7

HW/TW MILS/KT:1.2

 

 

_note: I don't know even how to incorporate the mil/kt to DCS values...

 

 

The idea is to show us poor souls how to do it right.

 

Thanks

 

P.S. Would you post an ACMI tacview along with it?

Edited January 14, 2013 by WildBillKelsoe

[slowhand]

Great share thx Eddie..would up ya rep but i need to spread ..hell you know what i mean.:thumbup:

[Ghanja]

... While I understand the basic info about altitudes and DSMS settings I don´t get how AOD, IHP, IAA, MILS/APP is used. ...

Have a look at this document - actually it was made for the the T-45 but you can get a lot out of it and use it with the A-10 ... :)

[Tord Hoppe]

Thanks Ganja, looks like I got some (more) reading to do.

[Eddie]

Aircraft GW: 38,000 lbs

Temp: 10 °C

Time to Final: 5 sec

Fuzing N/T

Fuze arming time 4 sec

Dive angle : 15 °

Release mode: SGL

Release qty: 1

Mils @ release : 204 mils

Release altitude : 1300

Release airspeed: 325

Abort altitude: 1250

Roll-out Altitude : 2000

Roll-out Airspeed: 290

Roll-out IPP: 64 mils

Roll-out AOD: 1783 feet

Base Altitude: 2400

Base distance: 7500 feet

XW '/kt: 8.7

HW/TW MILS/KT:1.2

 

I'm not sure where you got those numbers from, but without knowing the weapon type the delivery is intended for, the delivery type and some other missing parameters and bits of information it's rather difficult.

 

I've tried to replicate those numbers using our attack planner, and I can't. The closest I can get is a 15LAHD with BDU-33s which gives a base alt of 2500 and release alt of 1300.

 

If you're getting this stuff from old A-10A era stuff be careful, although it will work the numbers are based on older ballistic data than used to derive the profiles in the Battle Book.

 

As for H/T & XW, as well as mils etc, don't worry about it too much. Those parameters are mainly used when performing manual deliveries using HARS, without CCIP. If you're using CCIP you can perform the delvery perfectly using nothing more than base distance, dive angle, DTOF and the correct release settings (ripple etc.).

 

The simple rule of thumb is roll in when the target is on the 3/9 line. Roll to 80 degrees of bank + your planned dive angle (so for a 30 degree dive you'd roll to 110 degrees of bank) and then pull 3Gs, you should find yourself looking at the target at the correct dive angle.

 

As for target placement prior to roll in, use canopy references. Target just above the bottom of the canopy for a 45 degree delivery, level with the 2nd rivet on the canopy bow for a 30 degree delivery. 10 and 20 degree deliveries are easy enough to gauge imo.

 

Above all, much as with in flight refueling, it just takes practice to build the muscle memory and visual references.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I'm not sure where you got those numbers from, but without knowing the weapon type the delivery is intended for, the delivery type and some other missing parameters and bits of information it's rather difficult.

 

I've tried to replicate those numbers using our attack planner, and I can't. The closest I can get is a 15LAHD with BDU-33s which gives a base alt of 2500 and release alt of 1300.

 

If you're getting this stuff from old A-10A era stuff be careful, although it will work the numbers are based on older ballistic data than used to derive the profiles in the Battle Book.

 

As for H/T & XW, as well as mils etc, don't worry about it too much. Those parameters are mainly used when performing manual deliveries using HARS, without CCIP. If you're using CCIP you can perform the delvery perfectly using nothing more than base distance, dive angle, DTOF and the correct release settings (ripple etc.).

 

The simple rule of thumb is roll in when the target is on the 3/9 line. Roll to 80 degrees of bank + your planned dive angle (so for a 30 degree dive you'd roll to 110 degrees of bank) and then pull 3Gs, you should find yourself looking at the target at the correct dive angle.

 

As for target placement prior to roll in, use canopy references. Target just above the bottom of the canopy for a 45 degree delivery, level with the 2nd rivet on the canopy bow for a 30 degree delivery. 10 and 20 degree deliveries are easy enough to gauge imo.

 

Above all, much as with in flight refueling, it just takes practice to build the muscle memory and visual references.

 

OK, can I trouble you to post a quick vid for the DAPS finding related to my numbers? I ask if you use the X shaped field around Kobuleti for the pass.

 

And yes, the numbers are from older A-10A Mk-82 documents. I got a momentary valid release literally on top of target with CCIP reticle and I want to show you my approach. I'll render it from HUD view and post BDA pics. STBY.

[PhoenixBvo]

eddie, could you post illustration for one of the figures? like how to execute the 'box' pattern of attack?

 

After reading this thread I wanted to finally get CCIP delivery right. The sleds provide a good overview for a well trained pilot, but to get my head around the maneuver I simply had to draw to whole thing. So here is the result:

 

I also found LASTE bombing guide for A-10 a very helpful explanation.

And then I took the 2012 vHawgsmoke mission and its SOP and set the mission up as SP with air start at the range entry (WP Alpha). I found the roll in for the HADB target the hardest thing as you don't have a lot of time from roll out to track altitude and you basically have to bracket the target perfectly on roll out.

But after that I flew a mission and hit a BMP spot on flying a 82 45HA1 profile with 14kft base alt. That was pretty cool! :thumbup:

unguided ordnance delivery geometry.pdf

Edited March 5, 2013 by PhoenixBvo

[WildBillKelsoe]

After reading this thread I wanted to finally get CCIP delivery right. The sleds provide a good overview for a well trained pilot, but to get my head around the maneuver I simply had to draw to whole thing. So here is the result:

 

I also found LASTE bombing guide for A-10 a very helpful explanation.

And then I took the 2012 vHawgsmoke mission and its SOP and set the mission up as SP with air start at the range entry (WP Alpha). I found the roll in for the HADB target the hardest thing as you don't have a lot of time from roll out to track altitude and you basically have to bracket the target perfectly on roll out.

But after that I flew a mission and hit a BMP spot on flying a 82 45HA1 profile with 14kft base alt. That was pretty cool! :thumbup:

 

Can you post a track, or a TACVIEW? I need a cockpit view, not HUD view, guys....

Edited April 3, 2013 by WildBillKelsoe

[Kaiza]

After reading this thread I wanted to finally get CCIP delivery right. The sleds provide a good overview for a well trained pilot, but to get my head around the maneuver I simply had to draw to whole thing. So here is the result:

 

I also found LASTE bombing guide for A-10 a very helpful explanation.

And then I took the 2012 vHawgsmoke mission and its SOP and set the mission up as SP with air start at the range entry (WP Alpha). I found the roll in for the HADB target the hardest thing as you don't have a lot of time from roll out to track altitude and you basically have to bracket the target perfectly on roll out.

But after that I flew a mission and hit a BMP spot on flying a 82 45HA1 profile with 14kft base alt. That was pretty cool! :thumbup:

 

Great work mate :thumbup:

[WildBillKelsoe]

14 attempts to get it right. Please help

 

This is becoming a nuisance. Otherwise I'll switch to LGB's and hell with Mk-82's... 7 vehicles parked next to eachother, 12 bombs thrown, always missing short or destroying part of column. What is the problem?

 

I don't know how you do it like in the 30 deg dive bomb demo, but I think my technique needs work.

[Eddie]

....but I think my technique needs work.

 

What technique? Seriously, I cannot for the life of me work out what delivery type you're trying to perform in those tracks. I kind of thought it was meant to be a 15LALD, but then the numbers don't add up at all. Considering the length of time you've been practicing/researching this stuff, and the number of questions you've asked both Noodle (BlueridgeDX) and I on the forum and via PM I'm honestly surprised you're still making the same basic errors normally seen from people who've never even tried to learn proper weapon delivery.

 

1. Negative G pushovers? Really? Just stop it for the love of god!

2. Depressible pipper, why? If you're not performing a manual HARS delivery don't touch it, you don't need it.

3. TGP? Again, stop it, in fact just leave it at home. One the DSMS profiles are set up you should have your eyes OUT of the cockpit looking for/at the target. If you can't see it, you can't kill it. You also need to be able to see the target in order to maneuver the aircraft for the attack.

4. Loose the waypoints. They are clearly not helping you, in fact I think they are doing more harm than good. Focus on cockpit references and the target, that's it.

 

Now, for some numbers.

 

Looking at your tracks you're trying for a 15LALD ripple 12 (that's a lot a bombs for one pass, try and keep it to 6 max unless you have a good reason to use more).

 

So here's the numbers for a 82 15LALD 6. Standard fusing, ripple pairs, 75 ft spacing.

 

 

And a very quick & dirty demo of the above.

 

[Gideon]

 

So here's the numbers for a 82 15LALD 6. Standard fusing, ripple pairs, 75 ft spacing.

 

 

And a very quick & dirty demo of the above.

 

 

Thanks, for sharing this.

Now the puzzle is coming together.

[Nealius]

These are really cool. The only question is, how do you know the target is 1.3nm away when it's at your 3/9 and you don't have a steerpoint on it?

[WildBillKelsoe]

1.3 nm is 7900 feet, the CCIP reticle has analog range bar from 12,000 feet at the 12 o'clock position. Generally start the dive 1.8 nm out cutting throttle at the same time (if on base speed) rollout and rudder hard while slamming the stick to the same direction, just to put the ladder on the AOP. If done correctly, the altitude won't matter if you are higher than base at roll out.

 

next, use MRS and DRC to bracket the target. When CCIP reticle crosses the MRS, pickle.

[Nealius]

That's all very helpful, except I can't use the CCIP reticle when the target is at my 9 o'clock off my wing, and prior to making the dive the CCIP reticle will not even be visible.

[Eddie]

1.3 nm is 7900 feet, the CCIP reticle has analog range bar from 12,000 feet at the 12 o'clock position. Generally start the dive 1.8 nm out cutting throttle at the same time (if on base speed) rollout and rudder hard while slamming the stick to the same direction, just to put the ladder on the AOP. If done correctly, the altitude won't matter if you are higher than base at roll out.

 

next, use MRS and DRC to bracket the target. When CCIP reticle crosses the MRS, pickle.

 

:doh:

[WildBillKelsoe]

That's all very helpful, except I can't use the CCIP reticle when the target is at my 9 o'clock off my wing, and prior to making the dive the CCIP reticle will not even be visible.

 

Eddie, I wasn't taught by anyone. Please don't take it like I insist on numbers. Nealius, use the canopy rail only as reference. You should be able to use the TVV or the top edge of the HUD as reference to avoid TVV lag with excess G's pulled.

[DUSTY]

Eddie, I wasn't taught by anyone

 

Uhhh mate, If you read what Eddie is writing it'll go a long way to help 'teach' you proper technique.

 

It's not like he's making this stuff up, it's great info and I can't see why anyone would want to discard his information in favour of what seems to be ficticious and misleading information.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Uhhh mate, If you read what Eddie is writing it'll go a long way to help 'teach' you proper technique.

 

It's not like he's making this stuff up, it's great info and I can't see why anyone would want to discard his information in favour of what seems to be ficticious and misleading information.

 

I know he's not making this up. There is a saying that goes, don't give me a fish, teach me how to fish. The numbers are nothing if you can't see a real life example from the cockpit, and more importantly, the mission planner. On this retrospect, I think a good addition like this to the community, needs a "how to plan" video from the mission editor, and a "cockpit" view video of one plan concurrent with the "how to plan" video. In their youtube channel, is a mere HUD demo. OK, we can praise the pilot for such fine skills, but did we go through the first step? You can speculate all you like, but I'm not THAT advanced. You'd argue I should apply to either 476th, or 74th, but I say irrelevant, given they released this stuff to the public, a good dummy guide was needed as well for newbs like me.

[DUSTY]

I know he's not making this up. There is a saying that goes, don't give me a fish, teach me how to fish. The numbers are nothing if you can't see a real life example from the cockpit, and more importantly, the mission planner.

 

Hmm, are you're seriously complaining that Eddie et al have not provided enough help and guidance in a public forum (taking their own time to do so)?

Well with the greatest respect intended, I think you're missing the point here and should have another read of some of the posts in this thread because...

 

1. There is a 'real life' example from the cockpit in Eddie's video.

2. You don't need the weapon planner, the profile information is more than enough to get bombs on target accurately.

3. There is a saying that goes, "If I wanted to teach you to fish, I'd buy you a book."

 

(okay so I made that last one up).

 

Previously I only had a very basic understanding of propper CCIP unguided weapon delivery but after using the v476th Battle Book and the other documents also linked in this very thread, everything you need to know is here. No matter how basic your understanding.

 

...but did we go through the first step?

 

Here's a great place to start for that elusive first step. Following the guidance in the below quoted text will eliminate any need for you to worry about waypoints or distances etc. Combined with the profile information in the battle book, this is literally all you need to know to get set up for a perfect roll-in. After that you simply fly 1G wings level with the TVV set at the AOP and pickle when the pipper meets the target. Bang!

 

The simple rule of thumb is roll in when the target is on the 3/9 line. Roll to 80 degrees of bank + your planned dive angle (so for a 30 degree dive you'd roll to 110 degrees of bank) and then pull 3Gs, you should find yourself looking at the target at the correct dive angle.

 

As for target placement prior to roll in, use canopy references. Target just above the bottom of the canopy for a 45 degree delivery, level with the 2nd rivet on the canopy bow for a 30 degree delivery. 10 and 20 degree deliveries are easy enough to gauge imo.

 

If that does not make sense, see it in practice in the video posted by Eddie. at approx 0:01sec into the vid you can see the target aligned with the third rivet up from the bottom of the canopy rail which works perfectly to commence the 'roll in' - give it a try next time.

 

You'd argue I should apply to either 476th,

 

Speaking of speculation, what on earth lead you to believe I'd say something like that? :huh:

 

...or 74th...

Again nope, last I saw the 74th youtube has them flying circuit patterns 20 miles in diametre, not sure how much you'll learn from them.

 

Bill, I really don't want to come off as hostile or trying flame or whatever. I'm honestly just trying to help out as I found the information in this thread to be just the ticket to helping drastically improve my technique.

[WildBillKelsoe]

 

 

Bill, I really don't want to come off as hostile or trying flame or whatever. I'm honestly just trying to help out as I found the information in this thread to be just the ticket to helping drastically improve my technique.

 

just few more training sessions and I'll be good. Either ways the attack can't be perfected without training. I think I now understand the Method.

 

1- know exactly where targets at.

2- If very high, use the rail, let target pass the canopy rivets, be on roll-in speed.

3- roll using HUD top ( for beginners, turn off pilot head move by G option, or you'll duck inside while pulling G's)

4- pull 2-3 G's, once target to 10 degrees R/L, rollout. Check planned rollout speed. If excess, cut throttle, if slow, increase throttle. If 10 kts slower or faster, cut throttle. Speed build-up will help.

5- Put DRC on target

6- trim 1 click nose down for every 10 degrees of planned angle

7- pickle when MRS passes pipper on reticle.

 

 

I guess having a fixed AOP doesn't really matter because your nose will be shifting up by speed build-up, and trimming can shift MRS.

 

I'll post one of success tracks shortly.