Mighty amraam not so mighty in real life?

[Kelju_K]

In this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfxdbs2n5F4

starting at 41.11 minutes (the missle part of the video)

 

F-15 pilot tells his story of his first combat mission 1999 in kosovo.

 

A Serbian mig 29a pilot evades the amraam, (launched at 14 miles) after it has gone active(!) by just notching it (prob used chaff too i suspect ;))

 

I have been trying to replicate this scenario in the game in all possible angels, speeds, ect. and it simply can't be done.

Not even 180 at this situation (maneuvering after the missle has gone active after 14 miles launch) work.

Plus I have seen amraam make almost a U-turn and splash me. seen amraam makin so hard turns that it leaves an angle to the contrail rather than a curve.

 

I know the game is still in beta, and i hope that after the promised patch, this REAL LIFE situation is replicable in the game.

 

Thanks.

 

Kelju

[theChris]

what is notching? i heard he was beaming which is going perpendicular to the radar.

[Shein]

Coulda been a dud missile. Happens more often than you think... especially back in the day.

(Side note: it depresses me that 1999 is "back in the day" to me)

Course, we could model that too... a % error that a missile won't track, or track properly.

[Exorcet]

Coulda been a dud missile. Happens more often than you think... especially back in the day.

Even if it wasn't, this whole topic was posted with the false assumption that what happened is repeatable 100% of the time.

 

The sim might be 100% accurate, you just might need to perform the situation 100,000 times before you see it. You wouldn't know from one occurrence.

[59th_Buncsi]

In Serbia 1999 the hit rate of amraam was 12:1 so he may be right and as i know serbian pilots didnt use chaffs (they were trying to get close enough to dogfight so only took some flare). Only thing they did was 2 9g turns for 7-8 seconds.(In game even a 9g is hard to achieve...) Also their SPO-15 most of the time were inactive (inoperable). They could see the missiles visually mainly at night.

And Exorcet is 100% right!

Edited January 10, 2013 by 59th_Buncsi

[SFAL]

This topic is sooooooo done... we have 2 camps ... those who lunch amraams and run back to base on full afterburner... and those who are sick getting shot down by amraams....

 

all the this and that.... truth is the Aim120 has not seen combat aginst a well trained, organised and equpied airforce..... which was willing to fight

lets hope that we wont find out and this debate can go on and on...and on.....

if we are to find out welll....... we will be busy diggin in or trying to survive

 

i hope in 1.2.3 EVERYONE will get what they long for :)

[winchesterdelta1]

Because you know 1 instance that the AMRAAM didn't hit its suddenly not so mighty? And do you know the athmospheric conditions at that time and is that possible to replicate that in DCS aswell? And all the other unknows?

I say sometimes stupid stuff aswell. But where is the logic in this conclusion?

Seriously some people are to butt hurt about certain things. Just play the game and have fun. And if that means no F-15's and no AMRAAMS's on your server. So be it. Aslong as you have fun. And report real bugs instead of this weird logic.

Edited January 10, 2013 by winchesterdelta1

[swift]

Popcorn, anyone?

[SFAL]

me .... and some aspartane filled diet coke to rot my brain....

[USAFMTL]

Oh give me a freakin' break.

[Kenan]

I think the more interesting question would be why the Eagle pilot launched from 'only' 14 miles range? Perhaps they were sure serbian Migs can't launch their R27 at that range or something else?

[LeadDoctor]

I think people are getting cabin fever. Every post is becoming a flame war and its getting old.

[EtherealN]

This topic is sooooooo done... we have 2 camps ... those who lunch amraams and run back to base on full afterburner... and those who are sick getting shot down by amraams....

 

Then there's the third camp that knows what they're doing. ;)

(And this covers both F-15 pilots and "Red" pilots. A red pilot that knows his stuff, like the 51st, will not be shot down by a SPAMRAAM unless something very strange happens.)

 

Also, Kenan, "only" 14 miles might be correct. Was this an AIM-120A? It has shorter legs than C, and even the C I normally do not launch until I'm at 20 miles or less in order to ensure it has a good energy budget against maneuvering targets. So for an AIM-120A 14 miles sounds about right for what I normally do at around 20 miles. (But obviously this depends a lot on the situation - if platform and target are both high, ranges obviously go up.)

[Sov13t]

I know the game is still in beta, and i hope that after the promised patch, this REAL LIFE situation is replicable in the game.

 

Hey Kelju! Nice to see you on these forums!

 

I believe it is safe to say that the current version 1.2.2 has a few issues with missiles that will be addressed in 1.2.3. We should wait and see how the missiles perform there, before going further with our analysis.

 

what is notching? i heard he was beaming which is going perpendicular to the radar.

 

Notching is decreasing your closure tate to the enemy's radar to a point where your aircraft is no longer discernable from ground clutter. Usually aspect angles are ~100-120 dependent on many factors.

 

I normally do not launch until I'm at 20 miles or less in order to ensure it has a good energy budget against maneuvering targets.

 

Name of the game is patience... and those who are - are the hardest to deal with.

[danilop]

Then there's the third camp that knows what they're doing. ;)

(And this covers both F-15 pilots and "Red" pilots. A red pilot that knows his stuff, like the 51st, will not be shot down by a SPAMRAAM unless something very strange happens.)...

 

Don't forget, there's fourth camp as well ...

 

People mainly flying offline until missiles on both sides start acting as they should. Which lead us to:

 

 

I think people are getting cabin fever.

 

:yes:

[USAFMTL]

So the 2 camps I see are the ones who want to play a game and ones who want to fly a sim. The gamers want everything to be the same...i.e. R-27 is just as good as the AIM-120. But those are the ones complaining because it isn't. Well thats military technology for you....one better than the other one day, then one better the next.

 

Then you have the simmers, who understand this, and make the best using the technology they have and use tactics accordingly.

 

I see the complaining coming from the gamers camp.

[GGTharos]

A Serbian mig 29a pilot evades the amraam, (launched at 14 miles) after it has gone active(!) by just notching it (prob used chaff too i suspect ;))

 

Whatever he did (or didn't do) the missile didn't hit. You can't know why exactly. And it's okay, because the 120C's and B's in-game miss a whole lot. At 14nm, if the notch was executed right away the missile might have simply not reached him, though it's hard to tell if that would have been the case :)

 

I have been trying to replicate this scenario in the game in all possible angels, speeds, ect. and it simply can't be done.

Not even 180 at this situation (maneuvering after the missle has gone active after 14 miles launch) work.

Then you have been doing it wrong. It's very easy to notch an AMRAAM (or R-77) in-game if you're not caught with your pants down. The fact that it's hitting you from 14nm suggests to me that you don't know how to notch, or how to analyze what's actually happening. If the missile is in a look-up or co-altitude situation, you won't be able to notch it.

 

In-game missiles are quite dumb. The real deal is smarter. The missile that showers launched, the AIM-120A, which was not reprogrammable, is not simulated in FC. B and C versions, both of which are reprogrammable, and the C significantly upgraded, are the simulated missiles ... but they're about as smart as an R-27, other than having an active seeker.

 

Plus I have seen amraam make almost a U-turn and splash me. seen amraam makin so hard turns that it leaves an angle to the contrail rather than a curve.

They don't do U-turns or 'almost U-turns' ... it costs the 120 all of its speed to do something like that and so it wouldn't hit you. Again you're probably sitting inside a kill zone.

 

I know the game is still in beta, and i hope that after the promised patch, this REAL LIFE situation is replicable in the game.

It's replicable now, as it has been since LockOn 1.0.0. The devil is in the details. Edited January 10, 2013 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

Plenty of reasons: At that range and engagement altitude (about 20000' IIRC, high to low, but I am not sure if I recall the incident correctly) at 14nm you're BVR and out-ranging the R-27R (which might be right on Rmax at this point).

 

Another simple explanation is that this was not a head-on shot, and in that case it also makes it a shot in bad parameters for the missile (but wise for the pilot. Getting closer without firing the shot means a potential jousting contest and you don't want that).

 

I think the more interesting question would be why the Eagle pilot launched from 'only' 14 miles range? Perhaps they were sure serbian Migs can't launch their R27 at that range or something else?

[danilop]

So the 2 camps I see are the ones who want to play a game and ones who want to fly a sim. The gamers want everything to be the same...i.e. R-27 is just as good as the AIM-120. But those are the ones complaining because it isn't. Well thats military technology for you....one better than the other one day, then one better the next.

 

Then you have the simmers, who understand this, and make the best using the technology they have and use tactics accordingly.

 

I see the complaining coming from the gamers camp.

 

Where the sim end and the game begins?

 

We could probably agree that definition of a game is if there are no real world consequences for action taken. If you don't die in simulation for action taken, which would result in death in RL, then sorry, it's a game. End of story.

 

And how we simulate physical stress on virtual pilots? ;) I bet that 95% of virtual pilots couldn't do 20 push ups and majority couldn't put on G suit because of overweight issue. Pulling 9G's? :megalol: Mental stress?

 

So yes, DCSW is first and foremost GAME, albeit very realistic one.

 

All missiles are unrealistic - it's impossible to make them realistic, software on them is higlhy classified on both sides, so devs are left with obsolete manuals, media reports and testimony from pilots participating in wars fought against 3rd world country airforces with obsolete technology.

 

Reallity? :no:

Edited January 10, 2013 by danilop

[GGTharos]

Yep, we don't know exactly which algos are used onboard each missile and how they are parametrized (well, we know for -some- small number of missiles), but the funny thing, you know, is that a lot of what missiles do is publically available information ... including the algorithms.

 

So while we can't dissect each missile and replicate it in detail, there is enough knowledge to go around to make missiles fairly distinct from one another if there was just enough resources to put in all the required code. And that's quite close enough.

 

All missiles are unrealistic - it's impossible to make them realistic, software on them is higlhy classified on both sides, so devs are left with obsolete manuals, media reports and testimony from pilots participating in wars fought against 3rd world country airforces with obsolete technology.

 

Reallity? :no:

[Teknetinium]

Yep, we don't know exactly which algos are used onboard each missile and how they are parametrized (well, we know for -some- small number of missiles), but the funny thing, you know, is that a lot of what missiles do is publically available information ... including the algorithms.

 

So while we can't dissect each missile and replicate it in detail, there is enough knowledge to go around to make missiles fairly distinct from one another if there was just enough resources to put in all the required code. And that's quite close enough.

 

Its simple to me, As missile get better countermeasures against them do so as well so in the end if both sides are as strong, you probably will have to end up in a dog-fight. That's my air2air conclusion. If I would be wrong 5th gen fighters would look like black bird.

[GGTharos]

You're wrong. Recent kills are almost all done with missiles, and there were few dogfights.

 

What's the point in spending money on BVR missiles if all you'll achieve is getting into a merge?

[Exorcet]

This topic is sooooooo done... we have 2 camps ... those who lunch amraams and run back to base on full afterburner... and those who are sick getting shot down by amraams....

 

Funny, I use AMRAAM;s, but I often have to go to the enemy base just to get a shot off. The other guys don't turn around even when there are SAM's after me.

 

Its simple to me, As missile get better countermeasures against them do so as well so in the end if both sides are as strong, you probably will have to end up in a dog-fight. That's my air2air conclusion. If I would be wrong 5th gen fighters would look like black bird.

Well the SR-71 was hideously expensive, and that's without modern stealth. Also, the F-22 isn't quite Blackbird, but it's up there. So is the EF-2000, and the PAK-FA claims supercruise as well. You also do need agility for BVR. Going fast will just up closure rate and get you killed if you can't maneuver.

 

If all combat was destined to be WVR, Sprey's crazy radar-less fighters would be a reality.

[Sov13t]

Don't think there are camps per se. Just a lot of emotions that often cloud judgement.

 

There is the competitive aspect to this simulator, but regardless I think it is unnecessary to classify a person a "Gamer" or a "Simmer". Having DCS World installed and being able to take off and operate in this game is quite an accomplishment.

 

I have tried to get so many of my friends to get "into it" only to see them stray towards titles like War Thunder, StarCraft, EVE and other "Gamer" type games. That I think is what defines Gamers vs Simmers.

[blkspade]

The 120 variant talked about here is probably the A model, B at best. The AMRAAM in game is very much avoidable if you know what do and when to do it. Having fought you several times, I can assure you that it isn't an uber missile, you're just doing it wrong. If I'm supersonic, above you, and launching in tws at 14nm you're screwed 90% of the time if you don't give up your lock on me. It's not active until ~8nm, and probably just beginning to decelerate. Then account for the possibility that if you are still pressing on me, just prior to pitbull, that you have a 2nd one inbound.

 

 

In this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfxdbs2n5F4

starting at 41.11 minutes (the missle part of the video)

 

F-15 pilot tells his story of his first combat mission 1999 in kosovo.

 

A Serbian mig 29a pilot evades the amraam, (launched at 14 miles) after it has gone active(!) by just notching it (prob used chaff too i suspect ;))

 

I have been trying to replicate this scenario in the game in all possible angels, speeds, ect. and it simply can't be done.

Not even 180 at this situation (maneuvering after the missle has gone active after 14 miles launch) work.

Plus I have seen amraam make almost a U-turn and splash me. seen amraam makin so hard turns that it leaves an angle to the contrail rather than a curve.

 

I know the game is still in beta, and i hope that after the promised patch, this REAL LIFE situation is replicable in the game.

 

Thanks.

 

Kelju