Missle launch warning on the RWR

[Cmptohocah]

Hey guys,

 

I've read alot and I mean a lot of posts and disscusions here on forums about how and why RWR starts warning the pilot that a missile has ben launched. As far as I understood when a SARH has been launched radar goes in a special mode and this is picked up by the RWR warning the pilot of an iminent threat. If this is all true, imagine the following scenario: equip an airplane like Su27 with a false launch parameters/emisions mode and just keep on scaring the opponents with the la warnings without wasting any SARHs. This would keep them on their toes and they wouldn't know when the warning is fake and when it isn't. :thumbup:

[104th_Maverick]

Are you high mate?

 

No offense but this is the second time you have randomly posted something..... way.... way out there. Equip a plane with a false launch emissions mode??

Have you even done any research to see if this is implemented in the game, before posting your revelation?

 

Sorry to be the consistent bearer of bad news for you my friend... but again... this is not possible in the game. I'm not trying to rain on your parade here sir but perhaps in future it might be better to do more investigating into what is possible in the game before putting those ideas straight from your head onto the internet :)

[Cmptohocah]

Well if I was an aicraft designer, it would be the first thing to cross my mind. Since there is no way of hiding a SARH launch, why not make an effort of at least making it more diff to be recognized.

 

As far as I read here on forums RWR starts warning because the launch platform radar changes mode when fireing a SARH, and not the missile it self? So why not fool someone them? I would clasify this as ECM, or am I missing something out?

 

And no worries Maverick, no offense taken. ;)

 

Thanx

Edited January 15, 2013 by Cmptohocah

[Grigs]

As far as I know, RWR is analyzing radar emissions which scan your plane, their power and frequency. So to determine a lock or launch, the system has to pretty much guess. I think it is correct to say that it is an empirical technology.

 

I have always wondered how reliable actual RWRs are. In theory it is ok, but when you actually engage bandits..

[Dudikoff]

As far as I read here on forums RWR starts warning because the launch platform radar changes mode when fireing a SARH, and not the missile it self? So why not fool someone them? I would clasify this as ECM, or am I missing something out?

 

Well, I'm no expert, but AFAIK with the older SARH missiles, when the radar is in STT mode it starts providing (using a separate antenna) a "continuous wave" (CW) illumination of the target so that the SARH missile's seeker can guide towards the reflected beam. Thus, such a mode can only be detected by the target (and perhaps if there's somebody else in the radar beam) and you can't use your radar to search for other targets at the same time. So, when the target is locked, its RWR can detect it is but if I understand correctly it doesn't really know if the missile is really coming or not.

 

So, what you're proposing here is what exactly? To have a mode which shoots these CW signals randomly across the space? That would make no sense because you'd have to scan each spot for a certain amount of time to trigger the RWR and it's a huge amount of space to cover with a tiny beam. If you wanted to "scare" individual targets, you can already do that by putting them in the STT lock, but only a target at a time and the one you have already detected on radar.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Dudikoff

[Kuky]

;1651847']Are you high mate?

 

No offense but this is the second time you have randomly posted something..... way.... way out there. Equip a plane with a false launch emissions mode??

Have you even done any research to see if this is implemented in the game, before posting your revelation?

 

Sorry to be the consistent bearer of bad news for you my friend... but again... this is not possible in the game. I'm not trying to rain on your parade here sir but perhaps in future it might be better to do more investigating into what is possible in the game before putting those ideas straight from your head onto the internet :)

 

This idea is not silly at all, there are actually "weapons" for training purposed fitted with electronics but no propulsion or warhead which are very likely working as such... you can use radar etc and have fake shots during training.

 

EDIT: could these be it? :D

 

Edited January 15, 2013 by Kuky

[winz]

Well if I was an aicraft designer, it would be the first thing to cross my mind. Since there is no way of hiding a SARH launch, why not make an effort of at least making it more diff to be recognized.

 

As far as I read here on forums RWR starts warning because the launch platform radar changes mode when fireing a SARH, and not the missile it self? So why not fool someone them? I would clasify this as ECM, or am I missing something out?

 

And no worries Maverick, no offense taken. ;)

 

Thanx

In war scenario there is no logical reason to pretend a shot, when you can actually shoot.

[Kuky]

In war scenario there is no logical reason to pretend a shot, when you can actually shoot.

 

I can think of one scenario... two flights/groups attacking from different heading... one makes false launch to draw attention and keeps at safe distance while other group launches. Unless target RWR can see both STT launches (fake and real) he won't see the second launch warning... Russian RWR (in game at least) for example shows only highest threat, if there are two firing at you you won't see them both.

[GGTharos]

The idea is silly - it's about not giving up information when you do not need to. Besides, every pilot worth his salt will do something about a lock, since lock = missile coming at you sooner or later.

Further, there's no need to take away resources from the radar to 'fake' things. That may be so with the new AESA radars and their electronic attack modes, but they're more likely to focus on stopping the other guy from shooting instead of trying to screw around with his RWR (that will happen anyway when jamming).

 

The training weapons don't do anything of the sort, they have live electronics to give the pilot the correct feedback - ie. all the correct WCS responses etc, such as the sidewinder tone, weapon station signals, etc etc.

 

 

This idea is not silly at all, there are actually "weapons" for training purposed fitted with electronics but no propulsion or warhead which are very likely working as such... you can use radar etc and have fake shots during training.

 

EDIT: could these be it? :D

 

[GGTharos]

Why fake the shot, Kuky? You can launch from longer range and your Pk is higher than that of a fake shot. The russian RWR will show you the highest priority threat, meaning once the second group attacks, and they're closer, they'll become the primary.

 

I can think of one scenario... two flights/groups attacking from different heading... one makes false launch to draw attention and keeps at safe distance while other group launches. Unless target RWR can see both STT launches (fake and real) he won't see the second launch warning... Russian RWR (in game at least) for example shows only highest threat, if there are two firing at you you won't see them both.

[Kuky]

Why fake the shot, Kuky? You can launch from longer range and your Pk is higher than that of a fake shot. The russian RWR will show you the highest priority threat, meaning once the second group attacks, and they're closer, they'll become the primary.

 

I think I just explained why... confusing the target/giving it more to look out for etc. Drawing attention away from real threat is very valid tactic in any warfare especially when facing stronger opponent.

[Sov13t]

AFAIK all training missiles run internal simulations only. Nothing is emitted to the outside, only test routines are "simulated"/executed within the various systems.

[GGTharos]

I don't think you've explained why you're not putting a real weapon in the air though. There's no point in not doing so :)

 

I think I just explained why... confusing the target/giving it more to look out for etc. Drawing attention away from real threat is very valid tactic in any warfare especially when facing stronger opponent.

[maturin]

I don't think you've explained why you're not putting a real weapon in the air though. There's no point in not doing so :)

Maybe if you're trying to disengage in a BVR running fight? Freak the pursuer out with a fake launch, hoping you he goes defensive and gives you time to turn away, rather than maintaining the lock for the full duration.

 

That's all I can think of, so far as devil's advocate.

[Grigs]

AFAIK all training missiles run internal simulations only. Nothing is emitted to the outside, only test routines are "simulated"/executed within the various systems.

Doesn't the AIM-9X have a heat sensor which is functional? I am pretty sure it does and is used along with JHMCS

[GGTharos]

Again, why aren't you launching a real missile? That's what it's there for.

 

 

Maybe if you're trying to disengage in a BVR running fight? Freak the pursuer out with a fake launch, hoping you he goes defensive and gives you time to turn away, rather than maintaining the lock for the full duration.

 

That's all I can think of, so far as devil's advocate.

[Sov13t]

Maybe if you're trying to disengage in a BVR running fight? Freak the pursuer out with a fake launch, hoping you he goes defensive and gives you time to turn away, rather than maintaining the lock for the full duration.

 

That's all I can think of, so far as devil's advocate.

 

How will a fake launch be better than a real launch in this situation though? Best launch is the one that the enemy doesn't know about - or does not expect. Hence ETs and TWS kill rates.

 

In the situation Kuky describes, best thing to employ would be a drag - where the element that is engaged drags the enemy into the kill zone for the element that is being ignored. Fake launches in this situation will only alert the enemy of his dire situation and force him to flee at all costs.

 

Doesn't the AIM-9X have a heat sensor which is functional? I am pretty sure it does and is used along with JHMCS

 

Still, nothing is emitted to the outside. IR is a passive sensor.

[Tasmanian]

I don't think you've explained why you're not putting a real weapon in the air though. There's no point in not doing so :)

 

Whenever someone wishes an option there IS always a point. Why not put a real missle - it will have 90+% miss chance.

In DCS it can be very useful to "fake a launch" in many situations:

 

1.Head to head combat. Faking long before getting the target into launch envelope so he does not really know when the actual missle is launched (until visual). Can make him perform unnecessary maneuvers, use chaff or turn around.

 

2.Chasing. Faking a launch makes him maneuver - makes it easier to catch up.

 

In game often wished this to be simulated, but had to waste a missle instead. Of course it missed, but the target behaviour due to this wasting launch gave me profit.

 

I have no idea about real aircraft but suspect that there is such a mode that simulates radar emissions as when missle launched at least for testing\training purposses. But since you are keeping the target locked anyway and this option can be used in combat to mask actual launch why not implement it? I am afraid only real fighters and designers know.

[danilop]

I think I just explained why... confusing the target/giving it more to look out for etc. Drawing attention away from real threat is very valid tactic in any warfare especially when facing stronger opponent.

 

+1

 

diversionary attack - an attack calculated to draw enemy defense away from the point of the principal attack

 

Military tactics as old as the war itself. Works especially well with some sort of an ambush as a real attack.

 

So I think, Kuky has a point - confusion of your enemy is great stuff! Trying to evade something which is non-existent certainly ads to the confusion and the fear factor. ;)

Edited January 15, 2013 by danilop

[GGTharos]

I have no idea about real aircraft but suspect that there is such a mode that simulates radar emissions as when missle launched at least for testing\training purposses.

 

There isn't, and that's why you don't see it in-game.

 

But since you are keeping the target locked anyway and this option can be used in combat to mask actual launch why not implement it? I am afraid only real fighters and designers know.

Because it's pointless. You're giving up information that you don't need to, and real pilots are a bit less likely to chase retreating aircraft all the way back to their base like you do in airquake servers; they'll return to their mission and the other guy is probably a mission kill. Further, a lock in RL is already considered a hostile act. An RWR can easily warn you of a missile launch simply by matching lock + received power parameters (ie. 'in lethal range'). And just because the RWR didn't want you, it doesn't mean there's no missile launch. Even in an aircraft with as crappy visibility as the MiG-25, pilots in RL were able to see their pursuers launching missiles and dispense counter-measures.

RL isn't like in the game. People actually look at the bandit instead of staring at their HuD/Radar/RWR.

Edited January 15, 2013 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

Great, show me where all your wisdom here is implemented in a fighter's fire control system, and then we can talk about 'faking missile launches for the RWR' ;)

 

If anything, things go in the opposite direction, ie. delaying the warning as much as possible or hiding the launch in some other way.

 

Military tactics as old as the war itself. Works especially well with some sort of an ambush as a real attack.

 

So I think, Kuky has a point - confusion of your enemy is great stuff! Trying to evade something which is non-existent certainly ads to the confusion and the fear factor. ;)

[danilop]

Hey, it's a hypothetical topic :D - just arguing that such a tactics wouldn't be out of place in the real world if there was a real system in place.

[GGTharos]

How about figuring out why there isn't one, which I think is something many people wonder about.

 

As a result, there are statements such as 'I'm wondering why it isn't simulated, it should be possible!'.

 

In theory, after all, we could be arming MiGs with S-400 missiles too, or F-15's with PAC-3's.

[danilop]

Well, we really don't know if there is system with fake launching or not.

 

It is technically and especially tactically feasible.

 

...

In theory, after all, we could be arming MiGs with S-400 missiles too, or F-15's with PAC-3's.

 

Now, that would be something! :lol:

[GGTharos]

We really have rather good evidence that such a system was not implemented on the particular fighters that are simulated, and the reasons for such things not being done aren't altogether mysterious either - it is technologically impractical. You have an ARM/SAFE/SIM switch at best. I haven't seen a 'fake launch' switch in any of those cockpits, but maybe I missed it. You'd think you might want it to be pretty darned handy, so you can go back to 'engaging for reals now!' mode at any time.