Grass Roughness

[Jinef]

The Su-25 was built to operate near the forward edge of battle area (FEBA) from rough, "unimproved" airstrips - ED Website

 

Unfortunately, in the sim this is not currently represented as any deviation from the taxi-ways at any low speed is instantly greeted with undercarriage entanglement or damage.

 

Is there any plans to make the grass around airfields more wheel friendly?

[bn880]

Yes it can be quite a bummer. At least the grass near taxi ways (airfield areas) should be forgiving as they are usually fairly flat.

 

Also, it would be nice to get some better signage on taxiways, like runway headings instead of just A / B / C

[Oznerol256]

+1! I dont even want to know how many A-10C's i had to abadon just because i touched the grass! The weak wheelbrakes of the Hog makes the problem even more important, but i guess the wheelbrakes of a real A-10 are not much stronger.

[Exorcet]

The A-10's wheel brakes are fine. I have great difficulty running out of runway. Perhaps you're touching down too late?

 

I agree that the grass can be a bit wonky though.

[tintifaxl]

And it makes grass airfields for the P-51D impossible. I'd like to see this effect gone.

[MasterZelgadis]

The A-10's wheel brakes are fine. I have great difficulty running out of runway. Perhaps you're touching down too late?

 

...and/or too fast..

[upupandaway]

While it is a pity that you don´t have this ability/feature for the SU-25 or P-51, the effect is pretty much spot on. Go to Youtube to check out some reports of jets running out of runway and see what happens to their gear.

To remove the effect would make it equally unrealistic for the A-10 (which really doesn´t need that much runway to land).

Even street cars that weigh about 2 tons will have trouble on a grass field, damaging the surface. Now imagine a jet that weighs a lot more and has the similarly small surface area of its three wheels to stand on. How can it not instantly sink into soft grassy ground, especially when it´s moving?

Edited January 29, 2013 by upupandaway

[Darkwolf]

I'm flying both hog and toad, and i'm ok with the current effect.

 

On the side note - One thing I'd like to see would be airfield runway damage.

[Oznerol256]

The A-10's wheel brakes are fine. I have great difficulty running out of runway. Perhaps you're touching down too late?

 

I agree that the grass can be a bit wonky though.

 

The first sim i ever played, A-10 Cuba! featured way stronger wheelbrakes as well as quite tough grass. Taxiing was possible without any damage. Takeing off was hard due to the high drag that was introduced by the grass. Landing was possible, but only if u flew slow and your plane was light. Otherwise your wheels got damaged.

 

This sounds quite unrealistic and i am fine with weaker wheelbrakes as long as they arent weaker than the wheelbrakes of a real A-10.

 

Back to topic:

Heavy jets with small wheels like F-15 or F-18 should sink into the ground quite fast. However with bigger wheels like A-10 or even the Frogfoot, taxiing should get easier. The Mustang should be able to taxi, take off and land on flattened grass even with lots of fuel and ammo loaded.

[Oznerol256]

Unimproved = dirt and crappy pavement. You have to consider the weight of the A-10C and Su-25x. They are quite heavy and it's totally conceivable that the wheels will sink and that the infield/surrounding areas of the field aren't packed to support the weight of these airframes, especially loaded with ordnance and fuel. WWII era aircraft were flown from aerodromes (love that word) that were tested thoroughly first before conducting flights from those fields. Even then environmental condition could prohibit safe operations. This is/was especially true in Europe, when rain could soak and soften airfields to the point where even the lightest aircraft could be mired in the mud, and continuous ops could rut the field to the point where the wheel tracks could make takeoff and landing attempts extremely hazardous.

 

Quite right. In order to have the ground dynamics realistic, EDGE should calculate the drag and wheel-sinking-specs not only based on the type of ground but also depending on wheather situation, wheel size and number as well as speed and wheight of the aircraft.

 

What would happen if some jet runs out of runway in rl? No one would abadon a jet just because it is stuck in the grass.

 

Why is this done in DCS?

I think there should be an option in the comms menu which makes the ground crew pick up my jet and carry it back on the taxiway.

[Madone]

I think there should be an option in the comms menu which makes the ground crew pick up my jet and carry it back on the taxiway.

 

Yes it has been asked somewhere, it would be great to be able to continue the mission without having to restart the whole thing.

[bn880]

Yes it has been asked somewhere, it would be great to be able to continue the mission without having to restart the whole thing.

 

I think that would be a welcome compromise, a "Recover Mired Aircraft" option which takes X amount of time by the ground crew.

 

The thing is though, I'm pretty sure you don't get mired every time an Su25 or A10 rolls over a patch of dirt or grass, it depends on hardness, and inputs. Relatively speaking (contact area, weight distribution) Aircraft require less soil trafficability than land wheeled vehicles because they do not put power through the wheels. Maintaining power and a straight line you might be able to get through most regular unpaved conditions. Who knows for sure? We'd need feedback from someone who used to fly an Su or A10. (or worked on the ground crew)

[bn880]

http://www.175wg.ang.af.mil/photos/mediagallery.asp?galleryID=6045&page=2 Not much tougher than many unpaved surfaces...

 

Harder than grass? http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9927/su25fieldofmudpf5.jpg

Edited January 30, 2013 by bn880

[Oznerol256]

http://www.175wg.ang.af.mil/photos/mediagallery.asp?galleryID=6045&page=2 Not much tougher than many unpaved surfaces...

 

Harder than grass? http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9927/su25fieldofmudpf5.jpg

 

This is what i call low airfield requirements!

 

The thing is though, I'm pretty sure you don't get mired every time an Su25 or A10 rolls over a patch of dirt or grass, it depends on hardness, and inputs. Relatively speaking (contact area, weight distribution) Aircraft require less soil trafficability than land wheeled vehicles because they do not put power through the wheels. Maintaining power and a straight line you might be able to get through most regular unpaved conditions. Who knows for sure? We'd need feedback from someone who used to fly an Su or A10. (or worked on the ground crew)

 

As your pictures show, these Airplanes dont get stuck instantly once you hit grass. It all depends on the type of ground as well as the weather situation.

I guess P51 would sink into the grass if it has been raining all day.

 

In order to keep it simple to simulate, planes should still get stuck on grass, but not that fast. Recover option is even more important in my eyes.

[NRG-Vampire]

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9927/su25fieldofmudpf5.jpg

 

cooling brakes

[bn880]

cooling brakes

 

Oh yes, silly me, it's the brake cooling pit at the end of the runway, you leave it to the Russians to fix the problem. :smartass:

[Oznerol256]

cooling brakes

 

So the SU-25 needs both brake chutes and a "special" cooling mechanism for the brakes in order to perform a routine landing! :D

[NRG-Vampire]

yes, not only jetwash from engine but steam and damp behind from wheels

[schroedi]

Can the Su-25 do that in real world, too?

 

i dont think that a A-10 or a Su-25 would get stuck in the gras when taxing when he manages to get out

Edited February 4, 2013 by schroedi

[NRG-Vampire]

i dont think so

Su-25 has relative too long and tall main gears which are too close to each other and nose gear is too "astern"

so i think it will capsize or falls to the side in that high mud

in the video that Antonov-26 has much more wider track of wheels

Edited February 4, 2013 by NRG-Vampire

[Oznerol256]

i dont think so

Su-25 has relative too long and tall main gears which are too close to each other and nose gear is too "astern"

so i think it will capsize or falls to the side in that high mud

in the video that Antonov-26 has much more wider track of wheels

 

Maybe, but the wheels are still big enough to prevent the plane from getting stuck in the mud. It is unrealistic that every aircraft in DCS gets stuck instantly and cant move a single inch.

[Blaze]

You obviously haven't tried taking off the Mustang on the grass then. It's a wild ride, but totally possible. :)

[NRG-Vampire]

You obviously haven't tried taking off the Mustang on the grass then. It's a wild ride, but totally possible. :)

 

takeoff and land on the grass with Su-25T also possible but without weapons and fuel

so you need to jettison weapons and burnout fuel to make the bird light as possible

[159th_Falcon]

Didn't read the whole thread, but would be nice if the seasons would be calculated in.

 

In summer time the ground can be quite hard because of little rain.

(or very soft because of lots of rain, not sure what will be the case in the caucasus)

 

In winter though, its sub zero for month's making the ground very hard and thus supportive to higher loads.

 

So maybe keep the current effect for summer time and make it a bit less for winter???

Just an idea.

[bn880]

Yes good points, either way I think the fidelity to make the stuck/unstuck and broken/OK decisions is there; the values may just need tweaking in certain conditions to not always guarantee a fully loaded jet is always unmovable on dirt/grass if it has stopped.