Infrared guided missiles and the countermeasures

[Manuel]

Hey folks,

 

I consider myself a noob till now. Got ca. 100 flight hours and I have the following problem: I can not get IR guided missiles away from my plane. Tried everything which was recommended. 9 or 3 o clock position. Flares, turning away.... It did not work.

 

I will upload the tacview file, so everyone can have a look at it.

 

http://depositfiles.com/files/boql8q1ha

 

EDIT: Sorry, that is a shitty hoster.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5d11ct1mi2hsb2r/Tacview-20130122-220018.txt.acmi

 

The missile was an Sa-9 (9M31) which was launched from a gecko in the medium instant action mission on a10c.

 

Please help a beginner pilot to get some skill in countermeasures.

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Manuel

[Manuel]

One thought came up to me: I may did launch to few flares to avoid the missile, so I went on a firework run again and it worked this time... well not all the time.-. Last missile I got straight from the front and I pulled up, flares on top but it did not distract the missile. How can I get efficient with IR missile avoidance? I hopefully find a better way than releasing 30 flares for one single IR missile.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ddh4ky4mi8djq4n/Tacview-20130122-222829.txt.acmi

 

(Firework run)

[159th_Viper]

Missiles are supposed to find you. Best way to avoid the missile is to avoid being fired upon in the first instance. The hog is just too slow for any type of meaningful attempt at missile-avoidance so use your flares. 30 is conservative - dump them all if you have to. Useless to admire your leftover flares whilst ejecting from the airframe.

[Paganus]

Viper is right. The Hog is too slow to be good at spoofing IR SAMs. Avoid being shot at or stay so far out at the edge of the SAM envelope that if they shoot you can escape. Use the flares. If you notice with the CMS on auto, when it thinks you've been fired upon it will purge many flares very quickly.

 

Things to try.

 

Spot the missile. This is important so you know how far and the aspect.

 

If you are far enough away, turn away or even climbing can take you out of the missiles envelope.

 

If you are close and about to get hit, and are not already flying towards the missile, turn hard into the direction of the missile just before it hits you. This sounds crazy but you are trying to put yourself in a place the missile can't turn to. I like to push the nose down also when pulling this maneuver.

 

When all else fails and the missile is running up on your tail, throw a couple of hard rolls in just before it hits. Sometimes it will slip by.

 

Good Luck

[YakobeGrizzlyLepotyv]

When evading Russian IR missiles I fly very unpredictably and push the aircraft to the edge of it's evelope before stalling but knowing the launchers position to begin with is very important because missles you can't see are usually the ones that kill you. If i get a launch behined 3/9 I roll and dive before pulling back up this can increase the chance of the missles running out of steam before it can catch up and hit you. I think that you need to be familiar with what the aircraft can do before you get these manuvers right i.e. stall envelope max speed and pull up. But one things for sure, practice practice practice

[SmokeyTheLung]

which was launched from a gecko

 

Was it the SA-8 OSA (Gecko) that shot at you? That uses command guidance, and flares won't do the trick. Chaff and Jammer might help

[WildBillKelsoe]

you are doing mistakes:

 

• Going too close towards detection zone
  
• Observe wingman, he is not wandering inside the outer zone
  
• Flaring too little and no, you should give the missile the deep six.
  
• flares too far apart from each other. I usually set CMS to Z program and this will probably create a good AC-130-like shower of spoofer flares.
  
• Again your 9 o'clock is messed up, AND you've wandered inside outer detection.
  
• Breaking towards when you should break away from threat area.
  
• same mistake, breaking inside detection, you should consider doing a U-turn.
  
• the capital mistakes of pointing towards threat and actively engaging a 'hot' zone.
  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Manuel]

Thank you for all your replies.

 

With reference to the pictures Wildbill posted, I conclude that I should have stayed 3-4 miles away from the target when spotting AA like strelas. I researched the file once again and the Gecko was not involved to answer SmokeyTheLong's question. It was all shot by an Sa-9 Gaskin (Strela 1).

 

So concluison once again:

 

- If shot, don't be greedy with the flares

- Nose Down, flares ous

- Optimal is 3 to 9 o clock position, else maybe turn directly to the missile with nose down

- Avoid being shot at at all.... there fore (TGP range indicator when spotted AAA)

- Take out the AA with high altitude laser guided bombs or Mavs before clearing the rest of it with guns.

 

Does anyone have anything to add? I will try the mission once again and report back if I went well with the Bastards ;)

[Vlerkies]

Although not advised, the turn in approach does work (occasionally). Say your prayers though just in case.

 

Heres a clip, around 1.50 a sam9 fires close. He fires another shortly after the first miss and a third when I am practically on top of him. Third one clipped as I was way to low, slow and close.

 

[Manuel]

Nice one.... but seems suicidal. Maybe an option if there is no flares left?!

[Bushmanni]

One trick that at least used to work is to put the missile in the beam and pull max G split-S while keeping the missile at beam. This is easier to do than the turn towards the missile as you don't need as precise timing and you don't make yourself easier target for follow up shots but could instead end up getting behind some hill or something. After avoiding the first missile you could have enough speed and time to outrun the following missiles by turning away from the launcher immediately after evading the first missile.

[Euan3251]

well 1 trick that works for me most of the time maybe not the correct thing ... as long as you know where the missile is coming from pre set flares (in advance) to 6 in a single burst , release flares while making u turn away from missile and 90% it takes the bait as long as when it gets to me its directly behind ---

[Katalepsis]

As a relative n00b some things I've learned in the standalone PVE campaign:

 

a) let the secondary units take out air defenses, especially the "F10/other" units you can activate via radio, those marked for SEAD specifically, although you can also semi-manually "force" secondary radio-controlled units to "Engage: Air Defenses" [edited: do understand however that many missions require a certain amount of time to pass and/or even triggered events to occur before the "F10/other" units become available]

 

b) use your Wingman to "Engage: Air Defenses"

 

c) use your Mavericks at range to snipe SAM units, active pause is a decent way to do this if you're under debilitating duress

 

d) do indeed put active mud spikes at your 9 or 3 (whichever one makes the most tactical and/or logistical sense in relation to the hot zone versus safe zone) along with lowering your altitude if you're high or climbing if you're low. if these measures along w/chaff (used for most SAM missles btw) do not foil the missile then at the last moment turn into the missile trajectory as it cannot maneuver that dynamically, causing it to miss and expend its final energy

 

e) I use the loadout menu in Mission Planner to bias my chaff or flare count towards whatever threat I sense is coming the most (usually 450 chaff and 15 flare or 420 chaff and 30 flare, etc) and I do the same for my Wingman since sadly, they get shot down often even with being careful and loitering at the Ingress Point (IP) to let the other/secondary AI units cool the target zone off some before poking our nose in there. on that note I sometimes even retard my takeoff and stand pat on the runway to let the other AI units maturate downstream in their progression

 

f) lastly there is indeed some value to customizing your countermeasures in-flight, however after some tweaking I've learned the default values (2 count of "x" countermeasure at 1.0 second intervals) proves most effective, although I have had success with 1.25 and 1.50 intervals as well to help conserve some quantity over time.

 

Most of all it is your jamming capabilities that will mitigate the threat from the majority of relevant SAM units...the best defense against a missile is not having it launch in the first place (jam it until it's destroyed)!

Edited January 23, 2013 by Katalepsis

[Manuel]

Thanks again for all the replies, I guess that I need to have some time off and practice everything you said... ;) I'll be off in the Simulator and report back if I do not get it right

[Wayc00lio]

The best trick I have found is to put the best pair of running shoes on, wear some camo face paint, eject and run for it.................