P51 way too nervous... what's wrong?

[joker68]

Hi guys.

(Re) installed DCS today on a Win8 rig. So far, so good.

After setting the axis, I went to a quick flight with the P-51, but hey, I am not allowed to move the stick more than an inch off center. The plane automatically enters a spin or start to buffet really hard. This happens in any speed (fast, slow, doesn't matter). Worst, the other mustang (AI) is literally doing barrel rolls around me in the meantime.

My stick (Warthog) is perfectly calibrated. I can confirm this inside the DCS game looking at the controls. Pedals are calibrated too. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I just can't make a hard turn (or a turn by all means) with this bird, but the AI seems to be playing IL-2 1946!!

I would have more chances dogfighting in a C-130! :joystick:

Any hint? A10 seems to be working fine.

Note: I've just flown a couple quick missions before in P51 (old Win7 rig, ground attack only). First time trying to dogfight and make curves without bombs under wings.

[Nate--IRL--]

Set the input Curves in the AXIS options. (see pg 24 of the user manual)

 

Personally I use 30 for curve and 7 for deadzone.

 

Nate

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I've heard of joystick problems with win8, but in my case the migration was uneventful. I am using a Saitek X52 Pro, the Saitek Rudder pedas and also a Saitek Cyborg X (for additional controls).

 

I have even set all axis back at default "linear" mode with no consequences... Must be something with your controller drivers in win8(?) Did you update those?

[joker68]

@Nate: Thanks for the tips, will try and see if I can improve. Will report back.

EDIT: (reporting back): well, using a curve of 30 improved a little, but in fact I'm maskerading the real problem: at 300mph at sea level the plane spins/stalls when I reach (near) 5G!

The plane is behaving like I was at 30K feet or so. Now I know why AI is able to do those UFO maneuvers: it must be pulling 6G+ (which is perfectly possible according to the graph at page 103 of the Flight Manual (full). I am seeing this while flying the quick mission "Dogfight P51 vs P51". Anyone else can confirm this? (5G at sea level). Tried with and without flaps.

 

@jcomm: Well, there is no update (at least that I know of) for Win8. I'm just using the Win7 drivers, and they seem to be working fine (RoF, A-10C, Falcon BMS). I usually play "barebones", without TARGET.

Edited January 23, 2013 by joker68

[Konrad Friedrich]

You did not happen to employ the flaps?

 

I had this trouble in my first flight houres.

I have mapped the flaps on my TM Warthog to the flaps-switch on the throttle.

(You have to click the button to the down position several times to fully extend the flaps.)

 

If I accidently set the switch of the flaps one click to "down", the P-51 will become quite nervous.

Good for a dogfight and hard turns - bad during normal flight.

Perhaps you have a similar problem?

 

Btw: If I understood it correctly it's the laminar flow wing profile of the P-51 that can make things a bit tricky/twitchy at high G maneuvers.:joystick:

You have to deal with it... This behavior is physically correct. :D

I also thought (at the beginning) that there is something wrong... :blink:

Edited January 23, 2013 by Konrad Friedrich

[almonds]

Set the input Curves in the AXIS options. (see pg 24 of the user manual)

 

Personally I use 30 for curve and 7 for deadzone.

 

Nate

 

With the warthog or does it not matter what joystick you have?

[Konrad Friedrich]

One more thing:

Did you set the elevator trim to neutral?

I trim only when needed.

A little too much - and the Mustang behaves like a Bronco. :eek:

[joker68]

Did you set the elevator trim to neutral?

Hm, no. The mission starts with the Mustang already in the air, with the enemy doing a fast front pass at my right side, so I think it's "all set" for a dogfight already, but I'll check. Maybe that's the "trick" that I'm missing. (I'm pretty new to the P51 sim).

 

With the warthog or does it not matter what joystick you have?

Well, I think that P51 doesn't care about what kind of joystick you use, unlike A10-C, which will recognize and "auto-set" automatically for Warthog.

 

You did not happen to employ the flaps?

... This behavior is physically correct. :D

I also thought (at the beginning) that there is something wrong... :blink:

I did try the flaps, and they surely help sustaining the curve, but they did very little about how many G's I was able to pull before the aircraft spins.

I am on the same path: "keep trying, keep training", but without being able to pull more than 4.8~5G at 300mph at sea level, there's not much I can do against the AI enemy on a dogfight. He climbs, accelerates and turns (way) better than me.

 

My hopes are on the trimming system, and "keep trying". Must be me, because other systems in the game are working 100%, so I assume there's nothing wrong with my install. Strange that this is the first time I *really* have a hard time flying a sim (I fly sims for more than 20 years - my first one was on a PC 8Mhz, in the Mesozoic Era!) :)

 

Thanks for all the inputs.

Cheers.

[Ali Fish]

Strange that this is the first time I *really* have a hard time flying a sim (I fly sims for more than 20 years - my first one was on a PC 8Mhz, in the Mesozoic Era!) :)

 

Thanks for all the inputs.

Cheers.

 

this is the sim that took sim over above what sim ment for all other sims. so whilst you expect to fly this straight of the bat. its never been simulated to such a degree before. so you have to learn all over again. explicitly learning and taking into account all the physics you have never felt before. maybe learn is wrong word. adjust or familiarise maybe a more relevant word. but you are having to learn about more and more physics with each iteration of sim effectivly.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Ali Fish

[Konrad Friedrich]

Hm, no. The mission starts with the Mustang already in the air, with the enemy doing a fast front pass at my right side, so I think it's "all set" for a dogfight already, but I'll check. Maybe that's the "trick" that I'm missing. (I'm pretty new to the P51 sim).

 

If you mapped the elevator trim to a slider or axis of your Hotas or joystick the sim will read out the current position (at least with the TM Warthog).

So, if your trim is not in neutral position you'll get into trouble soon after mission start... :D

 

Do you use rudder pedals?

You may want to set the curve, too.

Even if you only use the z-axis of a joystick.

The rudder is pretty sensitive.

 

Important:

You really need to learn how to use rudder with the P-51.

Maybe this causes your troubles.

You need to anticipate the behavior of the plane and react with counteraction before it will happen.

Sounds hard? Well, it is. ;)

Stick... rudder.. counter-rudder.

It's like dancing :D

Edited January 23, 2013 by Konrad Friedrich

[Weta43]

It might re-assure you that things will get better for you (& you might find some usefull tips) if you have a look at the "Show me your mad dogfighting skills" thread ?

 

Someone't thoughts posted in the last couple of days :

 

@ Konrad & Merlin

 

I used to think it (AI) 'accelarated like a rocket' away from me, and that the climb to stall was unrealistic, but the more I fly the more I think I need to refine the smoothness of my technique and abilities!

 

Even the higher than player G tolerance I really am beginning to think is my poor flying... Certainly it needs to be remembered that the AI flys perfectly - but I really don't think it cheats. Certainly I'm getting much better at keeping right up with it anyway for prolonged periods and am working out how to overcome these problems.

 

The 'accelarate like a rocket', I'm pretty convinced is a combination of an inefficient turn by me and the phenomena of - he's out of the turn before I am and so he cleans up his ac so he can accelerate (relative to me) usually very fast with power and gravity, whilst I'm still finishing my turn (with all that wing load drag and usually some assymetric drag).

The effect is a bit like when you watch two F1 cars go around a hairpin corner close together - the leader always shoots into the distance before the follower can get on the throttle, but at the next 'corner' you catch him up.

 

'climb to stall' is something I see the AI do fairly rarely but when I've put him under real pressure - this is pretty realistic according to Chuck Yeager! This can be an excellent shooting opportunity, but it can also be a opportunity to burn your engine and end up with him on your tail! But as far as I can tell its real World!

 

' Turn harder than hard' only yesterday I was bugged by this as i kept losing a wing in a downward vertical scissor that got tighter and tighter and I was thinking the AI must be cheating, but then I realised I was always trying to turn inside him (only slightly) but still inside him - once I realised this I floated my turn to just outside of his and I could match him move for move and no redesign of player ac.

 

The AI even makes some mistakes such as turning into your flight path occasionally so that seems pretty human to me

(...) BUT the FM is pretty good already considering it is just AI. And in my opinion / experience doesn't cheat. We just need to improve our flying skills to keep up with an excellent adversary.

[joker68]

Hi Konrad.

No, I didn't map the elevator trim to a slider (but this may be a better idea than using the HAT that warthog has for this purpose).

 

I use a set of old TM Elite rudders. They work "ok" with most sims, but they really lack "precision", because they are connected thru a serial-to-usb adapter, and they behave like they have only 8 pre-programmed positions for each side (if you look them closely on the game, they seem to move at small increments or "micro-jumps" each time, so it seems that my serial-to-usb converter is making some math to convert the signals from analog to digital, which causes this loss of precision). At most sims, including RoF which uses rudder A LOT, this isn't a concern, but maybe in the P51 this become a major issue due to hyper sensitivity of the plane to the minimum input.

 

 

About using the rudder, I'm sure using it a lot in the P51. :) It's like you said, a dance.

The only way I found to keep it at "the edge" on a steep curve at maximum G sustainable. It is very rewarding to fly the P51, only if I could manage to shot down that bogey... :music_whistling:

[joker68]

It might re-assure you that things will get better for you (& you might find some usefull tips) if you have a look at the "Show me your mad dogfighting skills" thread ?

 

Someone't thoughts posted in the last couple of days :

 

Hi Weta. I'm inclined to agree. :thumbup: Thanks for the link, will check the thread.

[joker68]

[sOLVED] P51 way too nervous... what's wrong?

 

One more thing:

Did you set the elevator trim to neutral?

I trim only when needed.

A little too much - and the Mustang behaves like a Bronco. :eek:

 

THAT DID THE TRICK! Thanks, Konrad. Now I'm able to pull 6/7G, and keep the AI busy. :)

For those reading this thread, the plane starts the quick missions "un"trimmed.

[Tailgate]

I was also going to suggest, make sure you're not over-G'ing, it's easy to break something, like ripping off the wings. I started a head to head pass on the fast side, tried to lead turn and next thing I know i'm spiraling down without wings. lol.

[Echo38]

I did try the flaps, and they surely help sustaining the curve, but they did very little about how many G's I was able to pull before the aircraft spins.

 

They shouldn't. From what I understand, conventional and split flaps shouldn't let you turn faster or pull more G's. They only tighten the turn. Fowler flaps might let you turn a bit faster as well as tighter--I think they do--but the only Second World War fighters I know of that had them were the P-38 and Ki-43.

[BigMotor]

Fuel in the rear fuselage tank can also make the handling a bit trickier.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

My experience...

 

I started with a very scary experience my ride on the DCS p51d. My control inputs were allover the (wrong) places, couldn't land.. well, I felt bad, then I turned into a more agressive attitude of thinking the problem was on the flight-dynamics/physics model, etc...

 

2 months after having fully dedicated to DCS World, and after having migrated to win8, I didn't even need to reconfigure the control input away from linear. I am using it just as it comes by default and, guess what, I can land and takeoff even under the most unwanted weather effects, even without setting the proper rudder trim for takeoff, performing different types of basic aerobatics, etc....

 

It sums up to PRACTICE! That's it! I can only rember when I returned to RL flying (gliders) after more than 16 yrs away from it, and having used in between many flightsims (but mostly MSFS). I was really disappointed with that first flight. The tow was awfull, only the landing was acceptable... At the third flight I was getting back to the right inputs, and in a week all was back to "normal" :-)

 

DCS World teaches you to fly a powerful ww2 prop aircraft, and it's the most perfect flight simulator I have EVER used !!! :-)

[Vlerkies]

Joker, having the same trouble myself controlling this, but Konrad's 'trim neutral advice' made a lot of difference.

After many years of IL2 series, its still been a really long time since I have been in a plane with a fan in front, and its great.

 

Now I just need to stop cooking the engine. Baby steps, but early days yet for me in the P-51, but going to enjoy everyone i reckon.

 

edit: no more engine cooking for now. (useful thread below for noobs like me)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=100277

Edited January 27, 2013 by Vlerkies

[Kwiatek]

Question for Yo-Yo regarding stall characteritic of DCS P-51.

 

I just wonder about critical angle of attack for DCS P-51? What data is used here?

 

If it want be a problem maby you could post here CL max/ cAoA polar?

[Konrad Friedrich]

I think I have been misunderstood a little bit relating to the "trim neutral" matter.

The P-51 is trimmed to neutral when you start the mission.

(Well, unless you have mapped the trim wheel to an axis of your Hotas and put that axis elsewhere at mission start. Apparently the sim reads out your initial axis settings. So you want to set it neutral prior to mission start)

 

The yellow trim wheel markings in the cockpit appear to be set off neutral form the point of view of your virtual head position.

But the elevators are set "neutral".

(If you happen to use TrackIR you can look more closely)

 

The thing is that you really need to set your trim all the time.

Not only to fly as energy efficient as possible but also to gain a maximum of maneuverability.

 

An initial slightly positive set elevator trim can be much more comfortable with the P-51 then a neutral setting.

Funny enough - the plane feels quite good if you allign the yellow markings when viewed from your head position. But if you look closely they are then set slightly positive.

I think that is why you missunderstood me.

 

But to cope with an opponent you need to trim all the time.

If he outmaneuvers you all the time you can be sure that he trims like crazy ;)

 

I mapped the elevator trim to the slider of my TM Warthog so I can make quick changes.

 

Here is a little test. You can try this:

Set the RPM to 3000 (propeller to full increase),

Set the manifold pressure to 46 or max. 50 inHg,

leave the throttle there. You don't need more power. ;)

Fly the plane with your elevator trim and sensitive stick and rudder input.

You wont be able to outrun or catch up with the AI.

But if you are smooth on the controlls and make sure that you "read" the massages of your plane correctly (e.g. buffeting) you can evade that little AI bastard endlessly.

Just don't overdo the elevator trim settings.

 

That way you'll never hear the annoying farting sound off your pop-off valve.

And you should never follow these stupid "climb-till-stall" tricks of the AI.

Go in a wide upward curve instead (guess what: you need to trim correctly) and meet that bastard when he is at stall speed ;)

The air ram intake needs airflow (thats why it's called air ram).

You cut that airflow when you climb till you stall. That is why you will overheat.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Konrad Friedrich

[Vlerkies]

I set the trim reset button to the hotas.

 

Really don't stress I am properly fresh with this plane and just in the last 2 hours have gone from not being able to fly, to flying but cooking the engine, to managing the engine/flaps during combat ok and dogfighting with the SOB for 5 minutes or so, to ripping my own wings off with what i can only imagine are over G's, cause I have my Mk1 eyeballs on him and he aint got a shot.

:)

[joker68]

Great post, Konrad.

Perhaps I should clarify better about the "un"trimmed thing. I was thinking about a "combat trimming". In this scenario, a slightly positive trim is desired (at least for me), because you wanna keep your velocity vector most of the time pointed to the enemy (99% of the time in a curve), and the plane surely felt way more under control in that way.

 

What I did was exactly the "alignment" of the two yellow marks on the trim wheel, thus giving the plane that "nose up" attitude that makes pulling G's more confortable.

 

After reading your post, I think I will map the trim to the slider too. I have it mapped to the mixture (same thing on RoF), but having it mapped to the trim may be better. I still haven't flown higher enough to use mixture settings anyway, and an analog control is better (easier to "feel" the right physical position - i.e. "finger memory" - than having to set something through a button and looking to see if it is at the "right position" on the plane's panel).

Your other tips are valuable too. I'm still in my early steps with the P51, but so far it has been rewarding to "discover" these little "tricks".

Sorry about my english, not my native tongue.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Set the input Curves in the AXIS options. (see pg 24 of the user manual)

 

Personally I use 30 for curve and 7 for deadzone.

 

Nate

 

Ah yes... the curve game.. Shouldn't Mustang drivers NOT set curves on good sticks? I think the trick is to trim as you push, and offset as you pull... Flaps and 250-270 ish speeds can work wonders too... I suggest practicing with human multiplayer friends and leave the AI to the AI itself... (unless you're AI)...

 

The misconception of candelaria or yanking the stick out of the well is just ridiculous...

[Nate--IRL--]

Ah yes... the curve game.. Shouldn't Mustang drivers NOT set curves on good sticks?

 

There is no right or wrong, it is purely personal preference of the flyer. Unless you have a stick with the throw of the real Mustangs stick, it can't be defined as anything approaching "Realistic"

 

Nate