Friedric Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Based on users experiences I want to upgrade my setup , but i dont no wich one to take : Lochitech Flight system G940 Thrustmaster HOTAS WARTHOG + rudders CH F-16 Fighterstick & Pro Throttle Bundle + rudders Saitek X65F pro flight system+rudders our some other manufactures/products that i dont now of . wat you guys think [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] I/JG53_Friedric
agrasyuk Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 If your main interest is to fly the hog and you can afford the expense then TMWH is the natural choice. Anton. My pit build thread . Simple and cheap UFC project
Friedric Posted February 19, 2013 Author Posted February 19, 2013 i want to fly al the birds realy so it should be functional to al of them. Money is no isseu , i just want a good setup to fly DCS products and Clifs of dover . [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] I/JG53_Friedric
tintifaxl Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 I'd recommend the Warthog for every jet plane. if you want to fly helis or piston engined planes (as your sig suggests) the force feedback is very useful, so then get the G940. Windows 10 64bit, Intel i9-9900@5Ghz, 32 Gig RAM, MSI RTX 3080 TI, 2 TB SSD, 43" 2160p@1440p monitor.
Friedric Posted February 19, 2013 Author Posted February 19, 2013 for piston birds i stil have two MFF2 sticks here :-) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] I/JG53_Friedric
danilop Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) I was in your dilemma recently, Friedric. In the end I've got the X65F + Combat pedals. Solid and quality manufacturing throughout, however, there are some minor tweaks that should be done right from the start. Factory preset force levels on X65F are way too low which results in infamous centering problem - once tweaked to sensible and realistic force level, centering problems disappear. After force tweaking, stick and throttle need to be firmly fixed to the desk - then you start to really appreciate stiff throttle response and high force setting on the stick ;). Saitek pedal toe breaks need major axis tweaking in DCSW controller setup to function properly. I'm very pleased with the setup now - flexible, smooth and transparent in use. I even like Saitek programming software and I do all my button programming with it. Also, I have had zero issues with the latest (beta) drivers and software (knock on wood!). And yes, it took just a couple of days to adjust to force sensing technology. I don't think about it anymore ... Edited February 19, 2013 by danilop
Seil Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Happiness is a new set of Warthogs. (Just retired a dying G940) -Seil -Seil WotG Founder & A10C Lead
Swaty Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 I would suggest WH Friedric! It's excellent for war birds too! I fly CloD and IL-2 without any issues. You can check these reviews: http://simhq.com/_technology3/technology_174f.html http://www.hotas.gr/content/view/81/42/lang,en/ (mine) Also I would recommend simpeds rudders but are out of production.:( Ps.Swaty from 335th_GR here:) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] My Pit
metalnwood Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 I have owned all of them except for the saitek. The warthog is my fav for surf
elchacal Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 I'd recommend the TMHW.. It's an great HOTAS system with great precision..! I use it to fly the Warthog and all of the FC3 aircraft. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Cali Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 CH or WH would be my choice. I Currently have A CH set up and just bought a Cougar, if the Cougar doesn't pan out...I'll probably buy a WH, but i will always keep my CH as back up. i7-4820k @ 3.7, Windows 7 64-bit, 16GB 1866mhz EVGA GTX 970 2GB, 256GB SSD, 500GB WD, TM Warthog, TM Cougar MFD's, Saitek Combat Pedals, TrackIR 5, G15 keyboard, 55" 4K LED
Friedric Posted February 22, 2013 Author Posted February 22, 2013 Ok i ordered the Hotas warthog with Pro Flight Combat rudder :music_whistling: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] I/JG53_Friedric
Taproot Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Happiness is a new set of Warthogs. (Just retired a dying G940) -Seil Seil, can you tell us/me the difference? As much info as possible please. :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Seil Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Seil, can you tell us/me the difference? As much info as possible please. :) HAHAHAHA! Ok, here it goes: Bought the G940 a few months after they were released, just long enough after to not have to deal with the very first bugs off the assembly line. At the time the Warthogs were already announced, maybe even available - I don't remember. I really LOVED the G940 setup. Large controls, tall stick, very comfortable. With the halls on the X/Y axis of the stick, it's very precise. In fact, just about everything with the kit is great..... It's a much shorter list to go over the inadequacies of the G940 however: #1 Center Slop: This was the most disturbing part of the stick from Day #1. There wasn't a ton of slop, but enough that the stick wants to fall away from dead-zero in any given direction with a feather's touch. At first I attempted to solve this problem with software: I wrote a small program that took over control of the FFB motors in the 940 stick and tightened up the tolerances for the centering spring. This ABSOLUTELY solved the slop issue, but it was also causing the worst gear grinding sound CONSTANTLY coming from the stick, not to mention that the continuous load on the motors was causing the base of the stick to become feverishly hot. (Note: was in contact with the Logitech developers through testing of this and tried for about 3 weeks to find a REAL solution that wasn't going to cause the damn thing to burn out) In the end, I made-due with the slop by adjusting my grip and allowing gravity to load more the weight from my hand / arm onto the bottom rest pad of the stick, basically using the downward weight to help hold the stick at center. #2 The "Reversal Bug" aka Logitech's Failed Hysteresis implementation: All axis' (albeit to differing degrees) suffer from Logitech's Hysteresis problems. You can find plenty of information about this else-where, but it boils down to the developers attempting to solve a hardware issue with a software band-aid and failing on all fronts. When the pots start to go bad and spike (which they do) this code is supposed to prevent them from spiking out of control by reading and filtering the input values. What actually happens: Anytime you change directions on an axis, especially in a quick fashion, the input values of the new direction are filtered; severely cutting down the "sensitivity". I would find this happening to me during jink maneuvers coming off the targets. I'm able to roll fast as hell to one direction, but as soon as I quickly reverse roll directions, I was all of a sudden flying a different plane. I want to note that airspeed and other factors contribute to the rate at which you can perform rolls. This wasn't a problem caused by speed bleed, slew controls suffered worse from this; also see below: #3 The Deadman's Switch: This optical switch triggers when your hand is on the stick itself. This enables a completely different response curve from the stick, as well as a different FFB profile. If you fly your plane with your fingers touching only the top head of the stick, it will respond and fly beautifully, if the reversal bug is still present, it is very minimal. As soon as you trigger the Deadman's switch however, back to the same old song and dance. #4 The Logitech Profiler: Complete Garbage. Programming things like AXIS Zones, macros, shift states.... all difficult to get right. I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm just saying you're in for about 10 hours of loading/quitting the game and trying to fix things. If I just leave the stick as a stock DX input setup, then I map everything in the sim, including defining additional modifiers on the stick/throttle itself - 10 minutes to bind controls. I ended up using autohotkey and a few other hacks to get some of the programming features I needed from the G940.... #5 Lack of Strain Relief on the internal wiring: My throttle has been suffering from a short in the wiring. Basically amounts to most all controls on the right throttle itself being unusable when the throttle is at 100% I was always backing the throttle off to sometimes 80% of mechanical throw to get the buttons / D-Pad to work. #6 Lack of PROPER FFB Integration: Wings of Prey was honestly the only title (That I flew) that had some cool FFB for that stick. I am VERY unhappy with the FFB trim style... (Your stick is physically held offset from the center in order to trim). This may be a wonderful thing with an extra foot or two on the stick (extending it), but with such a short throw on the current design, I feel that it limits axis travel too much in the given direction(s) that trim is holding the offset on..... Let it be known, I reversed the FFB axis directions, flipped them, set good force values, and tweaked the FFB strengths of the stick itself to be AS NICE AS POSSIBLE in DCS. I also flew for quite some time like this, and eventually gave it up for just an FFB center spring again.... Anything that could be tweaked on FFB had been. It was waaay nicer than stock, but I didn't feel like it was "good enough". #7 Controls Design and Layout: There's no way around the fact that for most modern aircraft, you're going to need to use the MODE or Shift states to gain access to all necessary HOTAS controls. I was pretty content with this for quite some time. When the wiring short started happening in the throttle however, it became clear that massive over-loading of controls with different shift states and all of that was going to be a nightmare. If the shift button is flaking out, you have no clue if you're going to get "Coolie Left Long" or "China Hat FW Long" as an example. And thus, the G940 became "shiftless" at the end of it's deployment and removed convenient access to a number of critical controls. (Not to mention the MODE switch was ONLY usable with the Logitech Profiler, so that was a worthless switch for me for about..... the last 2 years). The DPads also felt a little spongy and shifted commands felt like they really took forever to execute. The TM-Warthogs on the other hand (and other sticks) seem to be a little more capable than a single D-PAD on the stick head with a single (cheap and inconsistent) mini-joy. #8 Rudder Issues: Only real issue I found was with the POTS getting dirty. Eventually, they were just no longer plugged in. Even still, the main controller was reporting weird and inconsistent rudder values. Had to completely unbind these axis. #9 This wasn't just my problem: My wingman, DeadCell, bought the G940 within a week or two of myself, and together we suffered from all of these problems as a team! Every time he announced a malfunction starting to happen with his G940, I was sure to see the same issue within days if not, a couple weeks MAX; and vice versa. It became pretty clear to us that we needed to solve this experiment-gone-wrong called the G940 when damn near every other flight, neither of us had enough working controls on the HOTAS to release a single weapon; restart the mission, go through startup, YUP, controls are working again...... 20 minutes later as we're fencing-in.... Ohhh look at that, No more TMS or China Hat...... GL! #10 I was going to "SAVE" that G940! I have a couple of spare Arduinos, I have ton of hall sensors and magnets....... But the time..... it just didn't seem all that worth it to me when I could be back to tip-top shape in the air in less than 3 days by ordering a TM Warthog HOTAS ;) .... (and have proper controls for my aircraft as well) ----------------------- I'm still planning to rip apart the rudders of the G940 when I get time and replace the pots with some halls, control it with an arduino or an AVR and have it running on its own USB slave controller. Need more time to even start thinking about that project... ----------------------- The Warthog: As a TrackIR user, I remapped the TRIM control to being JUST TRIM instead of look-around and shifted to Trim. -I set the grey analog slider on the throttle to be a zoom control (for use as binocs and visual spotting more than to dynamically zoom in/out). -I built a new curve for the SLEW axis'. -I bound multiple PTT (Mic Switch Up & Push, Stick Pinky Paddle) to handle all of our comms needs, TARS Guard is selected with the Mic Switch FW, Aft, Down (Default for VHF/UHF Radio Control). -I adjusted the lighting intensity..... And that is ALL that needed to be done so far. Something needs to be said about the SPEED at which commands can be sent to the simulation. Shifting controls inherently adds delay to each command (you're executing multiple commands to achieve a single input to the sim). Using the Warthog Hotas with dedicated controls for everything incredibly increases the speed at which you are able to operate your systems (namely weapons). Control accuracy is another point; Accidentally sending the wrong controls (China Hat Aft Short for instance, resetting your sensor to bore sight) is no longer an issue either. Going from a G940 to Warthogs quantified by weapons release: With the Warthogs, DeadCell and I can both launch 6 AGM-65Ds in about the same time it took us to launch 3 of them before (Utilizing TGP+MAV from stand-off ranges); 100% Good Effect on Target ;) As Flight Lead for WotG, I push my aircraft quite extensively. The scenarios we run typically put us under a lot of pressure to execute accurate strikes as fast as possible. We may be dropping 3-4 bombs, firing 2-6 AGMs in a single pass, or continuously holding the enemy under fire from our Guns with alternating passes. With the G940, I found it to be a lot more difficult to give fine adjustments (because of FFB spring design) as you pull off the target. The bird wants to roll off left/right more than it wants to climb. This is entirely caused by trying to over-maneuver given the current angle of attack, G-Load, air speed, aircraft weight + weapon weight, etc. With the TM Warthogs, in the same situation, I don't have any issues at all. The difference is the predictable consistency in the stick's response.... It was never an issue of being over zealous, but lack of definitive control from the G940 (for my personal tastes, other people may not have such an issue). The center of the Warthog Stick is pretty damn absolute. It almost "locks" into place. It is the furthest from the G940 experience I could imagine. With small force inputs, the stick will barely "rock" along the edge of the center point, almost like a force sensing stick; this allows you to make very fine corrections, even with a Pure-Linear response curve. "Stirring the Stick" also works wonderfully, allowing you to "stir" the stick with a circular motion to make fine adjustments (both small and large motions work well). ----------------- In conclusion: If you are a serious Hog Pilot, or serious about becoming a serious Hog Pilot, you want this HOTAS. DeadCell and I both have the TM MFDs as well, with the MFD video properly displayed inside the MFD controllers. Between those and the TM Warthogs, there is no comparison to how incredible it is to fly and operate our A10 Charlies. Side-Note: I can and do fly all kinds of aircraft - The A10C is our pride and joy, but if there is any question as to how will the TM Warthogs do for other aircraft, well there is no question at all. I have never owned or used any Saitek HOTAS controllers, I typically run not walk away from Saitek... That being said, I cannot speak anything about the X65, which would be the ONLY viable option I could see coming from Saitek. If you're considering an X52 or whatnot, remember that the G940 and the X52 are in a product class that could be labelled: "Consumer Desktop Controllers", the TM Warthogs however, are in the product class more appropriately labelled: "Professional Simulation Controllers". I say this based on the quality of the construction and from the experience of having disassembled the G940 and examining the switch design and circuitry inside. Disclaimer: All of my experience and understanding of the X52 is second hand from other WotG squadron pilots. ---- I could probably go on for days with more in-depth info, and there's plenty of other points that are mention worthy. Instead I think I'm going to conclude here and let more specific questions be asked. In case anyone's wondering, it wasn't mentioned above, but yes, DeadCell also bought a set of TM Warthogs. I can say that the above information is a product of our combined experience and findings. Hope this helps, -Seil WotG Founder & A10C Flight Lead Edited February 22, 2013 by Seil 1 -Seil WotG Founder & A10C Lead
Taproot Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Thank you man for this really long and good reply. Now I just have to wait for mine to fall apart and see if I still fly. Then I will surely go for the hog. If I knew that you had such outstanding information I dont think I would have asked the question like I did. Sorry. :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Recommended Posts