Air-to-Air Missile Discussion

[MVSokie]

I myself would like too see the results, I love flying the F-15 im just not very good at it so im always reading in here for advice from "experts" and seeing what works.

[TAW_Blaze]

Flying a homing beacon of fire at high altitude blatantly ignoring the fact if you fly solo things WILL slip by your attention (it's simply impossible to keep track of everything when you're alone) is just downright suicidal. There are a lot of things that the enemy can do to deny you SA, if you have AWACS that can be a helping hand but it's not like he sees everything either. Obviously this is all about flying alone.

[GGTharos]

Exploiting the doppler notch, aka the price you pay for having look-down capability with your radar.

 

The 'notch' is the range of closure speeds around your own ground-speed that the radar will filter out/ignore assuming that it's seeing ground reflections.

 

So, if you are at lower altitude than and turn perpendicular to that radar, you will fall inside that notch gate and the offending radar and it will drop you as a contact.

 

* look-down can occur at co-altitude or higher than the offender as well, as long as the radar has a background to look at, like a mountain. Basically your background needs to be terrain or chaff or other fun things, most of this is not modeled IIRC

 

What exactly is notching anyways? F-Pole, N-Pole, etc...

[USARStarkey]

AIM-120 rather poor K/D ratio

 

I would be open to mock battles. Blaze prefers to his apparently infallible tactical know how.

 

 

So would have hoped you would see that like in all tactics discussions, I was speaking in generalizations. Obviously, I can miss people sometimes. Conversely, they sometimes fail to see me, and also fail to hid effectively when they do. I can, and do, say the same about skimming the treetops as you do about flying high. It only works if you don't know the counter

Edited May 21, 2014 by USARStarkey

[*Rage*]

So lets see it then. Then post the tracks:)

[Grigs]

I would be open to mock battles. Blaze prefers to his apparently infallible tactical know how.

Problem is that Blaze already handed you information in this thread :P

[TAW_Blaze]

If you want that mockup fight you're knocking on the wrong door none of the 2 presented flight styles have anything to do with me, especially the one that I described, no point trying to draw conclusions from a fight that has one participant doing things that he's fully uncomfortable with.

 

Not that I have anything to prove I know there are holes in your strategy and I don't care if you believe or not, your problem.

 

I would be open to mock battles. Blaze prefers to his apparently infallible tactical know how.

 

 

So would have hoped you would see that like in all tactics discussions, I was speaking in generalizations. Obviously, I can miss people sometimes. Conversely, they sometimes fail to see me, and also fail to hid effectively when they do. I can, and do, say the same about skimming the treetops as you do about flying high. It only works if you don't know the counter

 

In the meantime, quite hilarious that your thoughtprocess can only be flawless. The strategy you described has major flaws in it left and right yet you keep denying it. I wanted to help with constructive criticism, but you just turned it into ****. Well done bro.

Edited May 21, 2014 by <Blaze>

[USARStarkey]

Good grief you are really really arrogant.

 

Apparently disagreeing with you is some kind of a sin. I don't agree with your "constructive criticism." I also don't appreciate how your opinion is apparently the constructive criticism of a sage, and my opinion is "bullshit" Of course I keep denying the "flaws" in my tactics, because I don't agree with your thesis. EXCUSE ME, for arguing a point of view different from your own. Geez, get over yourself. If hope you don't approach every person you meet in life with this same thought process, you might get tossed on your ass.

[TAW_Blaze]

No, the opinion wasn't **** at the start, but you made it ****. You just act like you can cruise around solo in space and nobody will get past you in the entire airspace.

Edited May 21, 2014 by <Blaze>

[USARStarkey]

I NEVER said I was cruising around solo. You are assuming that for some reason. Sure, there are other planes of both the Flanker and Eagle variety floating around the battle space-That should be obvious, and not worth mentioning. If there are Hostiles flying around the periphery of my Radar area, there can also be friendlies flying around that he doesn't see either. This is proportional to both sides, and therefore a moot point.

I can however get a pretty good picture of the relevant battle space around the area I am flying into, or around a target I have selected to kill. Whether I fly alone or not, there is always a potential for me to not see a threat. This applies to both sides however, which is belied by the fact that you seem to think the only way this will work is if the Flanker is ignorant of my presence. Much of the effectiveness of any tactic is how good the pilot is at obtaining and keeping SA. I personally have no difficulty finding flankers hiding in the mountains against ground clutter, or finding them after they notch. If I get into a situation where I lose track of my opponent, or feel like there might a new threat in the area that I did not at first see, I use my superior speed/alt to simply leave the battle space and come back at a better aspect and where I dont think I will be expected.

[NineLine]

Guys... check your posts please. Refer to rule 1.1

 

Lock On and Digital Combat Simulator are entertainment-line products and these forums are intended for a general audience. As such, it is strictly prohibited to post material considered inappropriate for minors or discriminating toward any individual or group, including:

* Profanity

* Adult content (sexually explicit and/or relating to the use of drugs and alcohol)

* National, ethnic, racial, religious and sexual discrimination

 

I am sure you are quite capable of getting your point across without the profanity.

[TAW_Blaze]

You didn't say a single thing that includes flight, wingman, teamwork, or anything that resembles them. Combine that with usual server flying, voila, you're flying solo.

 

If there are Hostiles flying around the periphery of my Radar area, there can also be friendlies flying around that he doesn't see either. This is proportional to both sides, and therefore a moot point.

 

Yes and no. Since you're flying at an extreme you're very attractive for both your altitude and your heat signature.

 

I can however get a pretty good picture of the relevant battle space around the area I am flying into, or around a target I have selected to kill. Whether I fly alone or not, there is always a potential for me to not see a threat. This applies to both sides however, which is belied by the fact that you seem to think the only way this will work is if the Flanker is ignorant of my presence.

 

No. What I said is that, if there's a good russian driver out there that knows where you are, he can get into your blindspot without you ever seeing him. If you have some special equipment that sees planes beaming outside 30nm then please share. Your friendlies might see him, but considering a usual server environment, I wouldn't count on it.

 

Much of the effectiveness of any tactic is how good the pilot is at obtaining and keeping SA. I personally have no difficulty finding flankers hiding in the mountains against ground clutter, or finding them after they notch.

 

Yes.

 

If I get into a situation where I lose track of my opponent, or feel like there might a new threat in the area that I did not at first see, I use my superior speed/alt to simply leave the battle space and come back at a better aspect and where I dont think I will be expected.

 

Sure and your chances are likely better to escape than from lower altitude.

[USARStarkey]

You didn't say a single thing that includes flight, wingman, teamwork, or anything that resembles them. Combine that with usual server flying, voila, you're flying solo.

 

 

 

Yes and no. Since you're flying at an extreme you're very attractive for both your altitude and your heat signature.

 

 

 

No. What I said is that, if there's a good russian driver out there that knows where you are, he can get into your blindspot without you ever seeing him. If you have some special equipment that sees planes beaming outside 30nm then please share. Your friendlies might see him, but considering a usual server environment, I wouldn't count on it.

 

 

 

Yes.

 

 

 

Sure and your chances are likely better to escape than from lower altitude.

 

 

1. You sure do make alot of assumptions. By your logic, if I omitted something, especially if it is common on the servers, then it is therefore true. It going to be hard to argue my point if you keep putting thoughts into words I've never uttered.

 

2. "Yes and No" Yep, that just about sums up any tactical debate.

 

3. I find it amusing that you have insisted now for about 4 posts I was assuming I'd know the location of the bandit, and now you are basing your position at least partly on the idea that the bandit knows my position.

 

At this point it becomes quite clear that I could just not say anything at all and you could carry right on making inferences and assumptions based on things I never said that you have implied by lumping me into some "general server riffraff" category. This does make having any sort of dialogue quite difficult, as apparently if I don't mention something, you go right ahead and assume that thing to be true or false--whichever suits you more.

 

Just in case: I am not flying a submarine! I know I just now said this, but I didn't want you to think I was!

[MVSokie]

anyway.....if anyone has more to say on the original debate i would like to hear as again I love flying the F-15 im just not very good at it and I was curious on this as it may be some of the mistakes I have made as I get shot down by the unseen bandit.

[TAW_Blaze]

1. You sure do make alot of assumptions. By your logic, if I omitted something, especially if it is common on the servers, then it is therefore true. It going to be hard to argue my point if you keep putting thoughts into words I've never uttered.

 

Your description of your strategy did not involve anything other than yourself and the bandit, that pretty clearly implies that it does not rely on anyone else other than you.

 

3. I find it amusing that you have insisted now for about 4 posts I was assuming I'd know the location of the bandit, and now you are basing your position at least partly on the idea that the bandit knows my position.

 

You still didn't manage to understand that the only thing you need to do to give your position away to a russian bird is to paint him? Just because you're scanning in a direction that doesn't mean you'll see them and not seeing them doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

You were the one that kept on repeating that you'd know his position, even though that's just flat out impossible in a lot of cases.

[*Rage*]

And so the fight and track will be posted when? I'm happy to host and adjudicate:)

 

 

 

 

 

Stirs it up again like a troll then runs away :P

Edited May 21, 2014 by ///Rage

[USARStarkey]

You didn't say a single thing that includes flight, wingman, teamwork, or anything that resembles them. Combine that with usual server flying, voila, you're flying solo.

 

 

 

Yes and no. Since you're flying at an extreme you're very attractive for both your altitude and your heat signature.

 

 

 

No. What I said is that, if there's a good russian driver out there that knows where you are, he can get into your blindspot without you ever seeing him. If you have some special equipment that sees planes beaming outside 30nm then please share. Your friendlies might see him, but considering a usual server environment, I wouldn't count on it.

 

 

 

Yes.

 

 

 

Sure and your chances are likely better to escape than from lower altitude.

 

Your description of your strategy did not involve anything other than yourself and the bandit' date=' that pretty clearly implies that it does not rely on anyone else other than you.[/quote']

 

This is quite possibly the most inane and dense reasoning I have ever heard from anyone on these forums. That does not imply that at all.

 

 

As for the issue of painting the bandit etc. We have been over this a dozen times already, your point is moot. Period. Who sees who etc it greatly dependent on the Geometry of the engagement, terrain, pilot skill, and so on. There is no guarantee that a Flanker will be able to hide just because he wants to. There is no guarantee that I will see him. There is no guarantee that upon see him, that when he tries to hide, he will even know if his deception was effective. You are trying to force down my throat something that is not an absolute.

Edited May 21, 2014 by USARStarkey

[Altimaden]

This is quite possibly the most inane and dense reasoning I have ever heard from anyone on these forums. That does not imply that at all.

I'm going to agree with blaze, you we're talking about 1v1 combat, narrowing the field of discussion...

 

 

Who sees who etc it greatly dependent on the Geometry of the engagement, terrain, pilot skill, and so on.

I personally find it very easy to find people at 40k+

I have learned the hard way to always scan that sector of sky and now I target the high flyers. I turn on the ECM, almost negating their range advantage (unless there's an AWACS), and I can safely get close enough to put him on the defensive, then defend myself (which is easier to do, being lower) allowing me more time to re-acquire, catch and kill.

 

I've tried the 'high approach by myself' tactic and it has worked for me, but I've abandoned it. It just doesn't work against a decent bandit. I think it's a viable approach with a wingman at something like 25k or lower, making a wide vertical bracket, but then you never mentioned a wingman

Edited May 22, 2014 by Altimaden

[hitman]

Im willing to make a pot on this, anyone in? To get in on the pot its $10 and anyone can double down.

[Rangi]

I'll put $20 on some one bringing out the dead horse .gif in the next 2 days.....

[SFJackBauer]

If I get into a situation where I lose track of my opponent, or feel like there might a new threat in the area that I did not at first see, I use my superior speed/alt to simply leave the battle space and come back at a better aspect and where I dont think I will be expected.

 

What about you guys use your superior skills to leave the thread space for a moment and come back to the discussion at a better aspect? Its not as any of you are making any progress at this... :)

 

But really, I have to agree with Blaze on this one. He never said that the high alt/speed tactic won't work sometimes, but that you can't rely on it always, like a one-trick pony, even more now that you stated your "superior tactic" in a public forum.

[*Rage*]

I blame it on Kenan:)

[TAW_Blaze]

This is quite possibly the most inane and dense reasoning I have ever heard from anyone on these forums. That does not imply that at all.

 

 

As for the issue of painting the bandit etc. We have been over this a dozen times already, your point is moot. Period. Who sees who etc it greatly dependent on the Geometry of the engagement, terrain, pilot skill, and so on. There is no guarantee that a Flanker will be able to hide just because he wants to. There is no guarantee that I will see him. There is no guarantee that upon see him, that when he tries to hide, he will even know if his deception was effective. You are trying to force down my throat something that is not an absolute.

 

Sure, there is no guarantee, but that's not the point. If you paint a guy and there's nothing else closer to him he will know your position if he cares about it. If that didn't happen in a position where he's already seen, he can start working around your scan pattern and try to get in your blindspot. I'm not saying it'll work every time, I'm not saying it'll kill you every time.

 

The following quotes are from your replies in the past pages:

 

1st reply, page 6

 

Also, it is EXTREMELY easy to predict where people will come out of the notch or our from behind a mountain. ANY Eagle driver worth his salt will require his bogey with ease. So far as I'm concerned, they can sit down their in the notch with their radars off all they want, blind and slow. Even if he knows where I'm at, and is particularly good at avoiding my shots, I can sit there and lob missiles at him if I absolutely have to and keep him defensive.

 

4th reply, page 7

 

Actually, you missed my point. I don't know what difficulties your having, but missiles are easy to dodge at 40k. Not loosing altitude in turns at 40k is easy.

Lol, if he shoots from my 3 or 9 at 6k or something big whoop. I'll just keep flying straight and light a cigar while the missile missed for me. Do it all the time.

Also, in not sure what your experience with the radar is, but you seem to think it is a lot harder that it actually is to find people. I WILL know where the enemy is before I'm 10nm out. I can't speak for you though.

Lastly, you massively over- estimate the notch. It is practically useless against a good eagle driver.

 

6th reply, page 8

 

No what you are misunderstanding is that I won't allow myself to not have info. For every move he's got to hid, I got one to force him into the open. And vise versa.

 

7th reply, page 8

 

I see that it is extremely difficult to grasp that I'll get the info whether he wants me to or not.

 

You seemingly ignore the fact that your radar can only see so much of the airspace effectively. You can't just say things like 'I'll get info about him whether he wants it or not'. That simply doesn't work. This is the point I was trying to get across, but I guess it's hard to understand. AWACS and teamwork can help you but the first isn't always there and the second was not even part of the argument. Obviously the people that fly more or less straight to you with no ECM or ground masking don't care about hiding their position and you'll see them from 60nm no problem. Go up against a guy that does everything to deny you information and you won't find him for a hell of a lot longer, especially if you didn't even know his starting position. If you did, you might have an easier time, or might fly into a trap.

[USARStarkey]

Sure, there is no guarantee, but that's not the point. If you paint a guy and there's nothing else closer to him he will know your position if he cares about it. If that didn't happen in a position where he's already seen, he can start working around your scan pattern and try to get in your blindspot. I'm not saying it'll work every time, I'm not saying it'll kill you every time.

 

The following quotes are from your replies in the past pages:

 

1st reply, page 6

 

 

 

4th reply, page 7

 

 

 

6th reply, page 8

 

 

 

7th reply, page 8

 

 

 

You seemingly ignore the fact that your radar can only see so much of the airspace effectively. You can't just say things like 'I'll get info about him whether he wants it or not'. That simply doesn't work. This is the point I was trying to get across, but I guess it's hard to understand. AWACS and teamwork can help you but the first isn't always there and the second was not even part of the argument. Obviously the people that fly more or less straight to you with no ECM or ground masking don't care about hiding their position and you'll see them from 60nm no problem. Go up against a guy that does everything to deny you information and you won't find him for a hell of a lot longer, especially if you didn't even know his starting position. If you did, you might have an easier time, or might fly into a trap.

 

 

Sigh. What you are still not understanding, is that my not being able to scan every inch of the battle space is a completely moot point. Nobody, at any altitude, can scan everywhere, especially people hiding at 2k relying solely on RWR and IRST to find people. As you have pointed out, even with AWACs and friendlies, I still might not see a bandit. This applies to all planes at all times etc. Great, glad to know you understand SA and its limitations!

The reason I was so adamant earlier about being able to find people is because you are implying repeatedly, that no matter what I do, they will be able to magically hid from me. It doesn't work this way. Just because he goes into the notch and wants to hid there doesn't mean there aren't things I cant do to pick him right back up. In fact, I find this to be very easy to do.

You argument hinges entirely on this lopsided and fantastical idea that once you reach X skill level for the low bandit that everything else just goes out the window.

 

Also, it has become quite clear at this point that continuing this argument is completely pointless. Lets just agree to disagree.

Edited May 22, 2014 by USARStarkey

[karambiatos]

so whens the 1v1 fight happening?