The Pony .50 CAL Ricochet

[Phantom88]

Ever since The DCS P-51 came out,I kinda found the Pony's .50 cals a bit overdone.I thought maybe the ricochet effect to be a bit dramatic.....that is until I started watching WWII Gun cam footage.:D Watch the ricochet effect in this P-51 Gun Cam when he hits metal:D

 

[gavagai]

The ricochets are tracer rounds.

[Phantom88]

The ricochets are tracer rounds.

 

I see,Thanks.

[Merlin-27]

I always thought the same... but that footage is an eye opener. It's amazing how much energy they retain. If the tracers bounce then so do the other rounds...just can't see them.

[KLR Rico]

It's amazing how much energy they retain.

 

Isn't it?! It's like they hardly slow at all. I wouldn't want to be anywhere *near* that mess.

 

Another thing though, I was curious about the tracer ratio. It seems like in DCS the bullets are all tracers, but in the footage there were more than a few rounds for every tracer. Is that something that can be changed in game?

[zaelu]

Even 120mm shells ricochet in Combined Arms... just to tell you that you have mist... again. :D

[Dunmer]

IRL, what looks like tracer bullets bouncing is, in fact, pyrotechnic flare material torn out from the projectile base on impact. This happens even when the projectile in itself penetrates the target. The same phenomenon is clearly visible on many videos showing modern small / medium caliber weapons firing at ground or water (Minigun, Phalanx CIWS, Browning M2, etc.). The trajectory of those pyrotechnic materials shows that what you see bouncing is quite lighter than a bullet.

[Suchacz]

IRL, what looks like tracer bullets bouncing is, in fact, pyrotechnic flare material torn out from the projectile base on impact. This happens even when the projectile in itself penetrates the target. The same phenomenon is clearly visible on many videos showing modern small / medium caliber weapons firing at ground or water (Minigun, Phalanx CIWS, Browning M2, etc.). The trajectory of those pyrotechnic materials shows that what you see bouncing is quite lighter than a bullet.

Very interesting, this didn't occur to me... :huh: Can somebody canfirm that?

[Dunmer]

I've just found a nice pic of the phenomenon in this Wikipedia page, with this caption:

Tracer elements from .50 caliber machine gun rounds separating from the projectiles after hitting the target or backstop

It clearly shows this strange trajectory, quite vertical. And short: a bullet wouldn't fall so early.

[Suchacz]

And short: a bullet wouldn't fall so early.

It depends on its remaining velocity (kinetic energy) after ricocheting. And after ricochet the projectile is probably deformed and rotating around random axis and it has significantly more air drag so its trajectory and energy bleeding is hardly predictable.

 

And what about ricocheting from the water? Is it real, or is a flaw of DCS?

Edited March 25, 2013 by Suchacz

[gavagai]

Another thing though, I was curious about the tracer ratio. It seems like in DCS the bullets are all tracers, but in the footage there were more than a few rounds for every tracer. Is that something that can be changed in game?

 

I don't think the rounds in DCS are all tracers. Each gun is firing close to 800 RPM, for a total of 80 rounds every second. If they were all tracers it would look like an unbroken stream of white!:)

[seikdel]

Holy cow is that an awesome video! Thanks Phantom!

For the record, I love WWII gun cam footage. I'm always amazed by the caliber of piloting those aircraft required. I visited the Richard Bong museum and they had a phenomenal video with plenty of gun cam footage from attacks on Japan. Wow.

[NineLine]

It depends on its remaining velocity (kinetic energy) after ricocheting. And after ricochet the projectile is probably deformed and rotating around random axis and it has significantly more air drag so its trajectory and energy bleeding is hardly predictable.

 

And what about ricocheting from the water? Is it real, or is a flaw of DCS?

 

Havent you ever skipped a stone? :)

 

Seriously though, it might be a limitation in the current terrain engine, I dont know that they can specify how the round interacts depending on the type of terrain its hitting... It might see all terrain as the same, and the rounds react the same with everything.

 

Just a guess, I dont know 100%

[Merlin-27]

It depends on its remaining velocity (kinetic energy) after ricocheting. And after ricochet the projectile is probably deformed and rotating around random axis and it has significantly more air drag so its trajectory and energy bleeding is hardly predictable.

 

And what about ricocheting from the water? Is it real, or is a flaw of DCS?

 

I believe it's possible...

 

[This is in no way an official source]

 

[Merlin-27]

Another video of military origin.

 

Notice @ around 0:32 some rounds hit the water and climb to a pretty impressive height. Those are apparently .50 rounds being fired... so I'd say water ricochet is confirmed.

 

VIDEO

[horseback]

Key words: Armor Piercing Incendiary Tracer (APIT). Off the top of my head, I believe that they had a solid armor piercing core with a tracer/incendiary jacket. Impact on the target was more visible than standard armor piercing, to aid aim. Hitting the ground or hardened/paved surface would send stuff flying all over the place, but it would mostly be from the softer jacket material while the penetrator might drill into the ground or bounce, depending upon angle and hardness of the surface. I would think that a lot of the initial energy would be lost with the first impact and that the ability to penetrate even light armored surfaces would be lost. It would, however, make a lot of noise and distraction and tear anyone outside the armor to bits.

 

cheers

 

horseback

[Suchacz]

Merlin, all of the ricochets in your vids were shot in low angle and that is the right behavior. But the bullets fired from the Pony in any angle will ricochet in DCS. I posted it already in "Bugs" section, but without any response from devs or testers.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=96786

 

...here the angle to water surface is approx. 30 deg.

 

Edited March 25, 2013 by Suchacz

[ZaltysZ]

[NineLine]

Seems like it is highly possible to have ricochet from water, although I dont know that the sim is seeing the water as water when rounds hit it, I dont know that there is a difference from rounds fired at the ground to rounds fired at the water, and I am sure changes in how rounds are affected by surface types (ie water, wood, metal, etc) are beyond what you will ever see in the current terrain engine... no idea if it will change with EDGE.

[Suchacz]

IMHO those ricochets are not from the water, but from that ships.