LASTE, WIND and Dumb Bombs in 1.2.4

[Angel101]

Hi all, I checked the new changes in 1.2.4 about wind corrections and LASTE, I find that with wind is impossible to get a Hit with a dumb bomb.

 

I got 2 tracks, one throwing a few MK´s directly in CCIP and other using the LASTE, wind correction page under the same mision and wind conditions, both result are nearly the same, all bombs falls too far of it´s targets.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61769381/mk%20ciip%20laste.trk

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61769381/mk%20ciip%20no%20laste.trk

 

 

¿it´s correct that behaviour?

 

EDIT: Same tracks replayed in 1.2.3.9871 ver. both runs hit´s nearly on tanks, so there is a big diference in accuracy between the two versions.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Angel101

[Nealius]

I read in a thread somewhere around here that for proper LASTE corrections the aircraft's altimeter needs to be set at QNH during startup, which we unfortunately don't get from ATC. I wonder if that has been changed?

[mhe]

You wouldn't actually need a QNH given by ATC. If you know your starting airfields elevation above sea level, you would simply need to adjust the altimeter so that it reads field elevation instead of zero. ATC gives you QFE, which is somewhat redundant information if you intend to depart, because you can simply zero your altimeter and read QFE from there. Another story if approaching the airfield to land of course.

[Habu23]

I can confirm that this is a issue that needs to be addressed. Before 1.2.4 LASTE would automatically correct the pipper by factoring in wind for CCIP and CCRP solutions. Now, it appears that there is no wind calculation in the solution. In fact, the CBU-97 pipper is very far outside the view angle of the HUD during medium wind deliveries.

 

Habu

[Habu23]

I did some more testing of this issue and I came up with interesting results. It appears that the issue is not a problem with LASTE calculations, but rather with wind implementation as it is defined in the editor. I usually practice my CCIP deliveries by placing a hefty, medium sized wind at constant headings and speeds per altitude interval.

 

In the editor, I define the wind parameters as 5 m/s or about 10 knots at every altitude interval.

 

 

At altitude, the wind is how I defined it, though the "288" is very strange. This number should read "115".

 

 

When I descend to sea level, the wind speed picks up. If you set the wind speed at higher settings, this "amplification" effect appears to increase exponentially.

 

 

From these results, it appears that the LASTE is in fact computing an accurate solution given the wind conditions at a specific altitude, but different wind speeds at different altitude intervals are causing the bombs to miss the target as wind speed picks up with lower altitude. This is a normal result, but the winds do not match the behavior specified in the editor.

 

Habu

[WildBillKelsoe]

I confirm CCIP for CBU's is out of whack for me at any altitude. I hit 350 and still, CCIP was dashed for 97/87 at a 35 degree dive. What is going on?

[rassy7]

So in general, has anyone been able to actually make correction for wind, however intense, and place a bomb on target since 1.2.4? I just ran another run of tests and was able to get all my bombs in a reasonably tight grouping but nowhere near the target.

 

I dropped 82's in IP/RP from high/low alt. I dropped some AIR's from around 500 feet and they all missed in the same direction as well. I made approaches from all directions and like I said, I was able to put the impact points fairly close to each other, just not on on my SPI. These runs were made with the proper conversions and information loaded into LASTE. Am I missing something or does this whole wind thing still just not work?

 

Have to imagine that would suck to have a sim like this and be unable to drop any dumb bombs if the map has any wind.

[gusanako]

Nobody complains about this? is impossible to hit a target with dumb bombs with wind, completely deviate.

Laste not work!!:mad::mad:

[gusanako]

I do not think anyone realizes this......:doh:

No active squadron that fly the A-10 C has noticed?¿?¿

It is shameful that any tester to confirm it.

Flying an A-10 can not launch dumb boms whit wind is equivalent to flying an F-15 can not launch missiles whit wind.

In 69 Spanish squad we have to use the 1.2.3 version by this bug.:mad:

Edited August 22, 2013 by gusanako

[PFunk1606688187]

It would be interesting to have somebody who knows something official comment on this. There were patch notes a while back on fixing the LASTE wind page. Is it actually fixed? Did the new fix make for a worse problem?

[peacedivision]

I can confirm what Habu23 reported. Seems the laste is working fine but wind in the sim is completely out of line compared to what is being set in the ME.

 

Only way to get accurate computations seems to be "sampling" the wind in sim using the laste page on the takeoff roll and climb out, then entering the results rather than trusting the numbers from the mission editor or briefings.

[IvanK]

LASTE Wind entry and weapon delivery.

 

I preface everything below with the fact that I am a total noob with the DCS A10C but have been following this thread with interest.

 

I don't believe the LASTE wind entries have anything to do with weapon delivery. I cannot find any reference to this in the DCS A10C documentation or the A10A (LASTE 6.0) weapon delivery manual. So I am not sure about any discussion of the LASTE wind correction page is relevant.

 

It is my belief that LASTE manually entered winds are only used for Navigation calculations, estimates fuel predictions etc. In the F18A the aircraft only used current system determined wind velocity to compute the CCIP/CCRP/FD solution. No allowance for a variable wind structure with altitude was made. I believe this is the same in the A10

 

In the civil world multiple wind entries at varying altitudes for each waypoint are used in blended fashion to determine RTA (civil TOT), ETA's and fuel predictions.Typically the FMS used the current INS/GPS calculated wind out to 200nm, it then blends in the manually entered winds as per the current loaded flight plan. This blending happening on a continuous basis until you get to destination. I would assume that the same process is used by the A10C Nav system.

 

The jpg below comes from the A10A Weapon delivery manually correct up to LASTE 6.0

 

As can be seen it makes no reference to LASTE entered wind. It clearly states that for large differences in wind structure with altitude you can expect impact errors. This makes sense as its only using system derived present winds ... not any entered winds. It stands to reason therefore that

the greater the altitude you drop from the greater will be the potential error. In addition weapons with high drift acceptance rates (like HD bombs or CBU) will be affected more than Lo drag weapons.

 

The mission editor accepts the wind entry as where the wind is blowing TO rather than the convention of where it is blowing from. However in the game the physical effects appear correct when looking at smoke direction and aircraft drift. If this 180 ambiguity is not resolved in the in game weapon delivery calculation then impact errors will be seen. A simple test with attack direction at right angles to the entered ME wind direction

would prove the point. e.g enter Wind in ME as 360deg (that is the wind is actually blowing from 180). Then fly a pass with an attack direction

of 270deg. See where the bomb impacts Left or Right of the target. If the 180ambguity is resolved in the solution an impact should occur if the bomb impacts Left of the target then the ambiguity has not been resolved.

Edited August 22, 2013 by IvanK

[Supersheep]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1645277

 

So many bits are filled with 'info' about this LASTE thing that I stopped trying to follow on what its current state is, much less trying to get it worked out myself. There's a correcting dumb bombs thread somewhere, and it's 12 pages going nowhere.

I wouldn't waste time on that and rather use it to practice CCIPing.

 

 

Super-

[Hansolo]

At altitude, the wind is how I defined it, though the "288" is very strange. This number should read "115".

 

Are you sure? Normally at least nautically the wind is being called out from the direction it is comming from. The ME looks like the wind is being set up as where it is blowing to as seen by the arrow (e.g. 115). If the A-10C system are also showing where the wind is comming from the it should have been showing 295. This is of cause still 7 degree off but some of it might be due to wheter the wind is shown as magnetic direction or not.

 

This of cause does not explain why dumb does not hit the target. Though it might be because the vectoring calculation in the game used the wrong direction, i.e. comming from instead of going to or vise versa.

 

Cheers

Hans

[gusanako]

I very much like what is being said.

But anyone can tell me as in previous versions was the accuracy millimeter whit wind and now fall to 10 meters from the target. It is impossible drop dumb bombs whit wind, which means that the A-10C in this version is almost useless.:mad:

regards.

[Flagrum]

It would be interesting to have somebody who knows something official comment on this. There were patch notes a while back on fixing the LASTE wind page. Is it actually fixed? Did the new fix make for a worse problem?

Patchnotes for the 1.2.4 update (forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1736971 )

 

DCS: A-10C Warthog

 

• LITENING TGP masking logic has been restored.

• Corrected MFCD start-up screen wrong color.

• Fixed AI wingman failing to engage target at Player SPI if AI is not aware/in range of target.

• Fixed LASTE Wind Edit data entry.

• Fixed Gun Minimum Range Cue Behavior.

• Fixed HUD Air speed indicator will TAS in GS mode.

• HSI course knob will now rotate the course pointer with or without power.

• Turn Rate Indicator has been calibrated.

• Fixed the CDU Wind Indication Direction being reversed.

• Several A-10 callsigns have been corrected.

[Hansolo]

I very much like what is being said.

But anyone can tell me as in previous versions was the accuracy millimeter whit wind and now fall to 10 meters from the target. It is impossible drop dumb bombs whit wind, which means that the A-10C in this version is almost useless.:mad:

regards.

 

From what altitude are you dropping dumb bombs and in what mode; CCIP or CCRP?

 

Cheers

Hans

[PFunk1606688187]

Patchnotes for the 1.2.4 update (forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1736971 )

 

DCS: A-10C Warthog

 

• LITENING TGP masking logic has been restored.

• Corrected MFCD start-up screen wrong color.

• Fixed AI wingman failing to engage target at Player SPI if AI is not aware/in range of target.

• Fixed LASTE Wind Edit data entry.

• Fixed Gun Minimum Range Cue Behavior.

• Fixed HUD Air speed indicator will TAS in GS mode.

• HSI course knob will now rotate the course pointer with or without power.

• Turn Rate Indicator has been calibrated.

• Fixed the CDU Wind Indication Direction being reversed.

• Several A-10 callsigns have been corrected.

 

The second one you bolded appears to indicate that they fixed the CDU's wind direction. Does this mean that CDU winds are read as blowing from now?

 

With respect to the first bolded item, again, I repeat my question, wtf did they fix with the LASTE wind page? I mean, there's no explanation from them as to what we're supposed to use it for, and no explanation as to what was fixed or was previously broken.

 

New item for the wish list: more explanatory patch notes. :P

[gusanako]

Really no one realizes that it is impossible to hit a target when there is wind, no matter the height, if CCRP or CCIP, if there is wind the firing solution is incorrect since version 1.2.3 :mad:

Edited August 27, 2013 by gusanako

[IdleBoards]

I preface everything below with the fact that I am a total noob with the DCS A10C but have been following this thread with interest.

 

Ivan,

 

Your analysis is spot-on, however the source you quoted is out of date. LASTE v6.00 derived current winds using CADC and INS inputs, and used the resulting values to "correct" the pipper. Of course, that's fine at low altitude during pop-up attacks because the winds at platform altitude and the surface aren't very different and even if they were, bomb TOF was so short that it didn't make a huge difference.

 

With the introduction of IFFCC and its subsequent upgrades, the CCIP solution is corrected using the winds entered in the WNDEDIT page (assuming the pilot has selected either "WIND" or "BOTH" as the model mode on the WIND page).

 

IFFCC will first compute the current wind at aircraft altitude using the same process used by LASTE. The current wind is compared to the wind table data entered by the pilot, and a correction factor is generated. The wind table values are then multiplied by the correction factor. The resulting blended values are used in the ballistic algorithms.

[Flagrum]

Wind correction? How does wind "look like" anyways? How exactly do the mission editor settings affect the in-game environment? I made a small experiment:

 

I flew at 15000 ft descending slowly while watching the CDU read-outs of the measured wind. Everytime the wind speed changed, I took note of the corresponding altitude. In the mission editor I set the three possible layers:

Sea level = 10 m/s

2000 m = 20 m/s

8000 m = 30 m/s

No turbulences

 

I know, neither the range of the samples - starting only at 15000 ft - neither the ME settings are optimal or realistic, but this was the result:

 

What can we learn from this? At least that the wind speed in game is not exactly as set in the ME - there are transistion areas.

 

How does this help in the context of this thread? Dunno, tbh... maybe just that even if several wind layers are maintained within LASTE and if wind correction would actually work, our "reality" will always be different and therefore there will always be some irregularities when we drop dumb bombs.

 

Btw, fwiw, wind settings in ME are "blows to" and true headings, LASTE displays it as "blows from" with magnetic headings.

("blows to" in the ME actually makes sort of sense: all headings in the ME are like that. The small compass you use to set the heading is the same as for every other object - where you just set where an object looks at or goes to)

[Angel101]

Hi all, I checked the new changes in 1.2.4 about wind corrections and LASTE, I find that with wind is impossible to get a Hit with a dumb bomb.

 

I got 2 tracks, one throwing a few MK´s directly in CCIP and other using the LASTE, wind correction page under the same mision and wind conditions, both result are nearly the same, all bombs falls too far of it´s targets.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61769381/mk%20ciip%20laste.trk

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61769381/mk%20ciip%20no%20laste.trk

 

 

¿it´s correct that behaviour?

 

EDIT: Same tracks replayed in 1.2.3.9871 ver. both runs hit´s nearly on tanks, so there is a big diference in accuracy between the two versions.

 

Boys... and gentlemen, forgive anything about LASTE and winds.. the FACT is until v.1.2.3.XXXX dumb bombs got a wind correction through weapons systems of A-10C and were able to delivery dumb bombs very near to the target.... now 1.2.5.xxx something has changed and the wind makes that impact point is far away of CCIP (if CCIP means continuously computed impact point.. then there are something wrong in the computed part).

 

The tracks above are still valids.

 

Greetings.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Angel101
orthography

[IdleBoards]

That doesn't seem to make sense.

 

If you recorded a track in one version and play it back in another the bombs should hit in the same place regardless of any changes to CCIP/IFFCC/LASTE. The aircraft is still at the same airspeed, altitude, and dive angle at weapon release in both tracks, so the bomb MUST hit in the same place.

 

The only way there could be a difference in impact point, is if there were changes to the weapon's ballistic characteristics or to the weather itself.

 

ED has some 'splainin to do. ;)

[Angel101]

Well, I don´t know what changed, I still got 1.2.3.xx v. and another copy with last v. and in every patch I check CCIP delivery with wind.

 

Bombs are falling to far away from CCIP reticle.

[Flagrum]

Boys... and gentlemen, forgive anything about LASTE and winds.. the FACT is until v.1.2.3.XXXX dumb bombs got a wind correction through weapons systems of A-10C and were able to delivery dumb bombs very near to the target.... now 1.2.5.xxx something has changed and the wind makes that impact point is far away of CCIP (if CCIP means continuously computed impact point.. then there are something wrong in the computed part).

 

The tracks above are still valids.

 

Greetings.

 

Hi all, I checked the new changes in 1.2.4 about wind corrections and LASTE, I find that with wind is impossible to get a Hit with a dumb bomb.

 

I got 2 tracks, one throwing a few MK´s directly in CCIP and other using the LASTE, wind correction page under the same mision and wind conditions, both result are nearly the same, all bombs falls too far of it´s targets.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61769381/mk%20ciip%20laste.trk

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61769381/mk%20ciip%20no%20laste.trk

 

 

¿it´s correct that behaviour?

 

EDIT: Same tracks replayed in 1.2.3.9871 ver. both runs hit´s nearly on tanks, so there is a big diference in accuracy between the two versions.

I played these tracks:

without laste: i saw you aiming about one width of the runway right of the tanks and the impacts were almost spot on (about 2-3 meters right of the tanks)

with laste: i saw you aiming along the edge of the runway and the impacts were exactly there, too.

 

I suppose when you flew in 1.2.3, you had the pipper spot on along the tanks?