Dogfighting Tutorials

[Nybble]

Hi all,

 

I have been playing alot of FC3 recently and as such have been practicing alot of dogfighting in the F-15c and Su-27.

 

I am very competent with use of each of the radar modes and weapons...

...against A.I. who do not fight back.

 

When I fight real players online or A.I. in missions I have limited success.

 

I was looking for some tutorials on how to manage an engagement properly, can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

Just to keep you informed I am not a total newbie, I am good with BFM and understand most of the concepts there, and find my energy management skills and target tracking to be quite good. However I seem to struggle to apply this to the phase between acquiring the target initially and the turning fight.

 

Any help appreciated!

[otto]

I can give you a few tips :

maybe you know this already if not then here it is:

-For russian su27:

Fire your missile and then turn to put the enemy plane at 60 degrees on your hdd(head down display) without braking radar lock.This way the enemy missiles will fly longer trying to reach you.This is caled beaming the missile.

And when you fire another missile always turn back to 0 degrees(with the nose towards the target) because firing while turning take some of the missiles energy.

Since 1.2.4 the r27er and probably r version lose track very rapidly of the enemy plane.So try to fire a r27er and a r27et one after the other.

 

What i can tell you about the f 15:

-if fighting a su27 try to estimate when you enter the r27et range because this heatseaking missile has a big chance of hitting you ,unlike the r27er wich can be defeated with small turns.So whait for the right time, fire one aim 120 or two or more,then disengage when you feel you're in r27et range and make an out of plane diagonal 180 turn towards the ground while popping flares.After a while you could reengage.Don't stay around to look at the possible prety enemy plane hit by one of your missiles explosion because you could also turn into an explosion :) .

-Also if somebody is tracking you on radar and your speed vector is perpedicular with the bandit's speed vector and the bandit while tracking you is at higher altitude, looking down then he will lose radar contact with you for a short while.This is caled notching or being in the notch.

 

-if you see that the enemy has a big altitude advantage, speed of other big advantage then brake the fight and head for home.No point in ofering somebody an easy kill.The greatest aces of all time(Manfred von Eichthofen,Erich Hartman) said they only engaged an enemy when having an advantege.

 

 

If you fly the f15 you should only go into into a dogfight with a su27 if you have an advantage.Otherwise avoid a dogfight with a su 27 because it will keep turning at speed at wich the f15 falls out of the sky and has the r73 high off-boresight missile wich is superior to the aim 9m and p.

From what i've seen the mig 29 is not as good in a dogfight as the su27 but still better then the f 15.

 

 

A common mistake i've seen online in close dogfighting: when somebody chases me and i have an optimum turning speeed i turn tightly in horisontal plane. Most players i seen try to match my turn also turning in a horisontal plane.And most of them fail to turn as tightly when they have higher airspeed and overshoot.

What they should do when they see they can't match the turn is go up, exchange speed for altitude,do a high yo-yo and come behind the target after it finishes the horisontal plane turn.

 

 

I hope i gave you at least a little extra information.

Edited May 5, 2013 by otto

[FLANKERATOR]

Good nose to tail fights (2nd semifinal and final) - cannon only: http://sa-sim.com/?p=4764

[SUBS17]

I often do dogfights F-15 vs 4 AI SU27s or SU27 vs 4 F-15s etc.

 

 

As far as Guns only is concerned the start of the dogfight is where you want to enter with the advantage if its head on. So ideally head on you want a good Lead turn to place you on the 6 of the Mig. If the SU27 trys to go slow you can still maintain your energy by climbing and rolling back behind them so the attempt to force you into a slow fight will not work if you do this.

 

Speed and G, now in order to maintain good visual when you turn if you start to black out ease off on the turn until you can see the bandit. (typically 400kts is a good turning speed above 450kts and you will have plenty of Black out/Grey out issues).

 

The most so far I've taken on is 8 4 SU27s and 4 Mig29s Gunzo all AI.

 

 

Mig29s are more difficult to dogfight as they are smaller, more agile and can climb very well. When the AI goes vertical in a multi bad guy situation following them will make your F-15 a sitting duck. So the answer to that is just stay turning but keep watching them and when they descend then roll back after them.

 

 

 

When you F-15 has less fuel then it is quite light and will climb just as good as the AI so either when this happens or you are down to one bandit and you're following him is when you start following them vertically.:pilotfly:

[EchoMasterMind]

Some pretty good advice here :)

 

The little online combat I've had with FC3 often seems to end with players being suicidal with the "As long as I get a kill, it doesn't matter if I get shot down a second later" mindset as they fire all their missiles while almost ignoring evading the ones I fired at them.

 

That aside, I've had some pretty adrenaline filled close range fights in the mountains. It's pretty exciting playing hide and seek with heat seeking weapons :megalol:

 

Are there any good video tutorials on how to fight properly in flaming cliffs 3?

 

And to add another question: Is the F-15C vs SU-27 a "fair fight"? I've always thought that the F-15C has an advantage because of the active radar guided missiles they have, which the Sukhoi doesn't. I'm pretty sure that this is just me being a noob though. Feel free to enlighten me :D

[GGTharos]

It's a much more fair fight in-game than it would have been in the real deal, so I'm told :D

 

The missiles aren't the only factor. The avionics are a big deal, and the avionics advantages/disadvantages are represented in a very superficial way.

[Crescendo]

That aside, I've had some pretty adrenaline filled close range fights in the mountains. It's pretty exciting playing hide and seek with heat seeking weapons :megalol:

 

Do people really find this sort of fighting enjoyable? Considering my experiences on public servers it would seem so. I just don't find it rewarding at all.

 

Almost every public server with an air-to-air component has the player spawns set up to encourage fighting over heavily mountainous areas. It devolves almost every time into lonewolf airquake tactics with people flying around in valleys and in riverbeds turning circles and burning fuel, all the while hoping for some hapless boob to fly overhead or get caught by the AWACS. If you happen to detect an enemyy at high altitude, the second you launch a missile at them they run and hide in the mountains with the rest of the server (and who can blame them when the sanctuary is right there?). If you say "screw it" and decide to play this bottom-feeder game, you take your life in your hands because whoever gets the first tally often comes down to luck (even if you're woking with a team). You can be assured of regular mutual kills, or of getting schwacked by that unseen bandit who stumbles upon your turnfight or who stealithly gets vectored to the area because you had the temerity to show your RCS for a brief second. It's just silly cat and mouse games that almost never serve any tactical purpose because the air-to-ground action is usually sequestered in its own little sandbox elsewhere.

 

To quote the seminal, film-for-the-ages WarGames (:P): "A strange game. The only winning move move is not to play."

 

Better to leave the mountain-quakers to their dirty mostly-pointless business.

[otto]

@ Crescendo

 

You could go to altitude with your radar facing nose down.If you spot somebody, even if they eventually hide you can guess where they will come out, so you have a big advantage while mentaining your superior altitude which in turn is an advantage.

Also while flying low in a canyon if you know how to use your avionics, sensors, you can kill and evade others efficiently.

For me fighting close renge is "pretty adrenaline filled " and rewarding even when i lose to a worthy adversary.But i hold nothing against people that like bvr duels.

[Nybble]

That is some very good information, thanks :)

 

One thing though, the emphasis seems to be on cannon dog-fighting which is fine, but I would like more information on how to tackle longer range attacks.

 

For instance I was on a server today where I flew out (solo, I know thats a mistake) to the objective area. I was using my RWS to detect theats and only toggled my radar on in short bursts to try and keep the element of supprise.

 

However doing so each time I got a lock I was being jammed (I was in 15c for the record) so I locked up the target and moved towards it. Each time I would hold lock for about 30 seconds or so and then loose it, and be unable to find it again on the radar.

 

I ended up flying around the objective area until I ran out of fuel, and there was 20+ people on the server!

 

Any tips on how to approach this better?

[GGTharos]

Since we can't see what you were doing and what others were doing, no ... I suggest reviewing tacview to see what happened and then setting up scenarios in the mission editor to train yourself to use the radar better. Just use some unarmed transport planes.

 

Any tips on how to approach this better?

[Shein]

I often do dogfights F-15 vs 4 AI SU27s or SU27 vs 4 F-15s etc.

 

 

As far as Guns only is concerned the start of the dogfight is where you want to enter with the advantage if its head on. So ideally head on you want a good Lead turn to place you on the 6 of the Mig. If the SU27 trys to go slow you can still maintain your energy by climbing and rolling back behind them so the attempt to force you into a slow fight will not work if you do this.

 

Speed and G, now in order to maintain good visual when you turn if you start to black out ease off on the turn until you can see the bandit. (typically 400kts is a good turning speed above 450kts and you will have plenty of Black out/Grey out issues).

 

The most so far I've taken on is 8 4 SU27s and 4 Mig29s Gunzo all AI.

 

 

Mig29s are more difficult to dogfight as they are smaller, more agile and can climb very well. When the AI goes vertical in a multi bad guy situation following them will make your F-15 a sitting duck. So the answer to that is just stay turning but keep watching them and when they descend then roll back after them.

 

 

 

When you F-15 has less fuel then it is quite light and will climb just as good as the AI so either when this happens or you are down to one bandit and you're following him is when you start following them vertically.:pilotfly:

 

This post is all great advice, but I'm puzzled by your flying in the video... It seems you completely forgot about corner velocity, and just hammered back the stick every time, routinely flying ~150-200 knots below where you should be. Were you just messing around, or...?

[GGTharos]

... which is why showing that video is bad advice. Corner velocity (Around 420kt, more if full fuel tank, a bit less if less than 8000lbs) should be minimum velocity in that fight (1 v many), and you should try to keep highest g velocity at much as possible instead (around M0.8-0.95)

 

This post is all great advice, but I'm puzzled by your flying in the video... It seems you completely forgot about corner velocity, and just hammered back the stick every time, routinely flying ~150-200 knots below where you should be. Were you just messing around, or...?

[Nybble]

Since we can't see what you were doing and what others were doing, no ... I suggest reviewing tacview to see what happened and then setting up scenarios in the mission editor to train yourself to use the radar better. Just use some unarmed transport planes.

 

That's just it though, I can ALLWAYS pickup an AI bandit (because they are predicatable maybe?) in my own servers. I have no issues using the radar and am quite comfortable locating a target if I know roughly where it is due to AWACS support.

 

My problem lies with human players who I have detected always managing to drop off the scope once they become aware I am hunting for them.

 

EDIT: If any of you want to show off jump into an online server and take on some bandits, I'll gladly watch though the track

[GGTharos]

Do you know how to dissapear from radar?

[grimm862]

Do you know how to dissapear from radar?

 

I do not, or at least I couldn't tell anyone how to do it. Care to explain?

[GGTharos]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=102341&highlight=radar+notch

[Nybble]

So effectively my target is aware of me and is turning to face 90degrees away from me?

 

If this occurs what should be done as a counter?

[GGTharos]

You have a bunch of options and the one you will choose depends on your tactical situation.

 

The most important thing is to know where the bandit is before he dissapears - his altitude or angular elevation, his azimuth, and direction of travel. It is also super-useful to spot the landmarks around his location, as this makes searching for him easier. Yes, your eyes play a big role, even in BVR.

 

You can now:

 

a) Turn around, fly away for a minute (this is 10nm per minute at 600kt, you can figure the math for other speeds yourself ;) ), then turn around again and look for him.

 

b) Pull a bit into lag to bring him out of the notch (he'll no longer be perpendicular). It may help to raise the antenna off of him so he can't see your nail and notch it any longer, thus forcing him to momentarily appear on your radar again when you cover his airspace with your radar again.

 

c) Match his movement rate with bank, and close aggressively, switching autoguns ... this requires you to practice because you have to make the turn a bit faster as you come closer, and hope the autoguns will gain lock - naturally, this is for when you're within 10nm of the target.

 

d) Launch a 120, especially inside 10nm. He now has two things to notch.

 

e) If he's beyond 22nm, your radar won't be able to detect him at all if he turns his six to you.