EVIL SCOTSMAN - Please Read

[sumoscouse]

Hello Matey - just wanted your advice re new set up

 

Asrock 939 DUAL-SATA2 (939) ULIM1695 Dual core +8x AGP PCI-E SATA2 RAID + LAN + USB2.0 + 8 ch. Audio ATX

 

AMD Athlon 64 3700+ S939 OEM

 

6800 GT

 

1 Gig RAM (DDR 2700)

 

Once I have put this Rig together (maybe wed) what would be the best way to tweak this set-up and Lockon FC so that it runs well

 

Any Ideas from anyone else would be more than welcome

 

 

Merry Christmas All

 

 

 

Cheers

 

 

SumoSocuse Out :cool:

[airea]

Go for a DDR 3200 ram at least... San diego 3700 works on 11*200 and your rams should be at least in 400mhz frequency. I am not sure whether there are pci-ex agp boards? I recommend DFI series board...

[pappavis]

I've gotten me the "Asrock 939 DUAL-SATA2" with a Athlon64 3200 processor along with a new SATA-I harddisk.

Shame i cant get the damn thing to install windoze coz it crashes in the MS-DOS part of WinXP installation. After selecting the SATA driver the machine jsut hangs. Any ideas why?

I have tried many cobminations of installing windoze, even tried Win98, even that hangs at the initial setup "copying files" part :wc-smoker. COuld it be that the moery isnt compatible?

 

The setup is asrock mobo, 4*256mb DDR400 in Dual Channel mode, Athlon64 processor, Samsun spinpoint SATA-drive.. All parts are new.

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

ya, dump the 2700 and get min of 3200/400 and up, if you keep the 2700, you will be slowing down your pc with that crap.

 

If you cant upgrade the memory at the moment, make that first on your list, get 512mb sticks instead of 1gb sticks as they are faster and have tighter timeings, get anything thats roughly 2-2-2-5, dont get cas latency of 2.5, as your system will scream along and with crap slow memory you will be hurting it :(

 

as for lockon, well i just have the game and no mods whatsoever installed, i use the black 25t skin from chizh, thats it and I run everything except water at its highest, i have water at high, mirrors at medium as i dont use them, but everything else is maxed.

 

when you build it, make sure you lock the pci clock at 33.33 as if you overclock and havent locked the pci clock you will damage your pc. leave the pci-e at 100mhz, and also never leave the memory at default settings, as it probably will not be what the memory is meant to run at.

 

even if you dont overclock make sure the pci clock is locked.

 

With the san diego core, i think you can now run all mem slots full and still get 400mhz instead of 333mhz. Not sure but I think that is the case now with the SD cores, so you are just pissing the cpu and mobo off by putting in pc2700 :)

 

If you have a soundcard, use that instead of onboard, as the onboard although probably decent, will eat up cpu cycles thus using the cpu when a soundcard would nt use as much thus giving you that slight touch of extra power. No big deal tho, not that much to gain from using a soundcard instead of onboard, in games is where you will notice the difference power wise, for sound quality, although onboard is getting much much better than they used to be, a soundcard would still be better unless you put in some crap one.

 

airea, his mobo is pci-e and agp. best and only one if i remember that can do that without any problems.

 

by the way SS, thats a real good setup, you will love it ;)

 

For actual lockon, there is many other people who would be more able to tell you what tweaks they do or did to gain more fps, i dont use any as i dont have to, so tweaking lockon is kinda a m00t point with me. I did tweak it for my old pc's but i have totally forgot what i did to them.

 

If you need any other hardware related help, then just ask/pm me and i will try to help ya out, but next time tho please post in the tech section as your post will no doubt get moved and you will think it got deleted if you post hardware related threads on the main page ;)

 

you got real nice pc :)

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

pappavis, could it not be the windows cd is scratched or corrupt ? also have you tried to update the bios to the newest one ? or maybe the bios itself isnt configured properly ? like having pci-e enabled while you are using the agp slot or vice versa, and thats causing windows install to mess up as its getting confused, or it could be the harddrive itself.

 

I can check things out, but i would need the exact specs of your pc, every single piece of hardware and also a copy of the mobo manual.

 

I would also need to know exactly which ports and slots are used for memory harddrives vid card etc etc.

 

if you can pm me or link me to the manual and everything else that i ask for, then i can maybe help you figure it out. not saying i can fix it, but 2 minds better than 1.

[pappavis]

EVIL, you''re a GOD! ;)

[sumoscouse]

E-S, Thanks for the Info and advice (likewise to others who gave thier piece)

 

Memory is next on my list

 

Graphics Card is AGP - MB is PCI-E & AGP

 

Is there anything I need to be careful off in BIOS when setting RIG UP

 

 

Cheers

 

SumoScouse Out :cool:

[Yellonet]

I really doubt that there will be any significant increase in performance if you only change the memory to 200 MHz instead of 166 MHz as it is now. And if it's good chips you should just need to clock them up to the new speed.

[sumoscouse]

Thanks Yellonet - might run a comparison ___before & after see what the difference is

 

 

Evil-Scotsman - where you talk about which memory to get and you say try to get 2-2-2-5 and not cas latency 2.5, my 2 questions are

1. what is the difference?

2. how is this identified on the information given about memory sticks

 

I ask the last question because after looking at http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/MPartspecs.Asp?mtbpoid=642F35BEA5CA7304&WSMD=939Dual%2DSATA2&WSPN=CT2KIT6464Z40B

 

I am still none the wiser

 

Chers

 

SumoScouse Out :cool:

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

I really doubt that there will be any significant increase in performance if you only change the memory to 200 MHz instead of 166 MHz as it is now. And if it's good chips you should just need to clock them up to the new speed.

you really believe that ?

 

400mhz dual channel, kills 333mhz dual channel.

 

67mhz a difference is huge for memory, so how you really doubt that is beyond me.

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

Thanks Yellonet - might run a comparison ___before & after see what the difference is

 

 

Evil-Scotsman - where you talk about which memory to get and you say try to get 2-2-2-5 and not cas latency 2.5, my 2 questions are

1. what is the difference?

2. how is this identified on the information given about memory sticks

 

I ask the last question because after looking at http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/MPartspecs.Asp?mtbpoid=642F35BEA5CA7304&WSMD=939Dual%2DSATA2&WSPN=CT2KIT6464Z40B

 

I am still none the wiser

 

Chers

 

SumoScouse Out :cool:

The lower the numbers, the quicker it works and the quicker it can process info and send it on its way. with your rig, i would suggest cas latency of 2, also make the command rate 1t.

 

for memory, i would suggest Corsair, Mushkin, Patriot, Kingston, Crucial etc etc.

 

I have heard real bad things bout OCZ ram, they are supposed to be crap and they only were good when they got reviewed as they sent the sites hand selected ram that worked, everyone I know personally who has had OCZ ram hated it for its crappyness and eventually got it rma'd even that was a pain in the ass. Saying that, I havent personally had that type so i cant make a judgement for myself.

 

basically, the lower the numbers the faster it is. you do get a cas latency of 1.5 and 1 but they are dear and are problematic.

 

Stick with the 2 and either 2-3-3-6 or 2-2-2-5 and also go for dual channel kits = 2 sticks in 1 box that are designed to be run together for faster performance, also set it to a command rate of 1 instead of 2 for even faster performance.

 

Be prepared to pay a premium for the good stuff, which i would say would be mushkin redline for extreme overclocking, that stuff is magic, and also corsair, corsair isnt as fast as the mushkin redline series at pc4000 and beyond speeds, but if you were just dumping it in a pc and not OCin it then they perform admirably.

 

the link you link to is for crucial ram that has a cas of 3, now for your rig that is like putting cooking oil into your ferrari, it will work but wont get the best performance out of your rig.

[sumoscouse]

Thanks E-S, that makes more sense to me now

 

In future I will PM you any Tech Issues I have

 

 

Peace Out Kidda

 

 

Cheers

 

SumoScouse Out :cool:

[Yellonet]

you really believe that ?

 

400mhz dual channel, kills 333mhz dual channel.

 

67mhz a difference is huge for memory, so how you really doubt that is beyond me.

Because test made show that there is no difference and that the DDR333 is sometimes even faster.

 

And the difference is 34 MHz... DDR400 and DDR333 run at 200 and 166 MHz respectively, but they make two 'operations' each cycle hence the 'Double' both in name and speed marking. But as the difference in frequenzy is quite small it is often possible to overclock the PC2700 memory to 200 MHz to have it in the same speed as your main bus and FSB, which is generally a good idea.

 

Couldn't find the test now... but it was on Toms hardware.

However this was a few years back. I still doubt that the performance increase is significant though.

 

Really nice if you could make a before and after test, sumoscouse.

[sumoscouse]

Cheers Lads

 

 

Yellonet - ETA Test results within the week

 

 

Cheers

 

SumoSocuse Out :cool:

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

dude, you are wrong, if you wanna believe what you say, then thats cool with me, but if it was "FASTER" then why the fux would people buy pc3200.

 

200 is what the mhz is, but since it performs at 2 times for 1 clock tick then thats equivelant to 400mhz, which you say the same above

 

as for "toms hardware" LMFAO the gheyest nubbest (sponsored)hardware site on the internet. = false reviews as they get paid to give good reviews and to endorse products. even mentioning toms in a benchmark test is just bad ethics man, everyone knows toms is full of shit.

 

i got a few pc's with 3200 and 2700, and the 3200 is always faster. so where you get 333mhz is faster than 400 from, i really dunno. honestly dude, i am dumbfounded, so you can overclock, but then you can overclock 3200 for that matter, but why would you want to overclock and lessen the lifespan of components when he can pop in 3200 and run it at stock and have a full life out of them ?.

 

just because some "tests" say other wise, doesnt mean anything. benchmarks in general mean shit. they do not translate to real world terms.

 

So as far as any benchmark review, you take them with a pinch of salt as they are most probably false compared to real world terms and day to day pc usage.

 

btw , i can do the tests your asking for right now, and one pc has a 2800 with pc 3200 and the other is a 2600 with 2700, now practically the same specs, and yet my 2800 pwns my 2600 memory wise.

 

even 34mhz as you like to call it is a huge difference in terms of ram speeds, since it only goes upto 200mhz,

 

especially when people overclock there ram and think that a 34mhz increase is on the huge side, even tho some can go 250+ . 34mhz is still massive difference.

 

the difference in speed between them is roughly 20% and for testing purposes, you will not get more than a 25% increase between the 2. 25% increase is the absolute max that you could possibly get, but its more likely to be 15-20% increase which is nothing to sniff at.

so if you think a 20% increase in memory transfers is nothing then DAAAM.

 

I will admit that the difference in latencys is negligible, as after a certain point there is only a tiny gain, but as for actual speeds of ram thats totally different.

 

for a rig like yours SS, you would be stupid to put 2700 in it unless it was a stop gap until you could afford to get the faster memory. It will run ok, but as soon as you change to 32, then you will notice a difference, especially for lomac, faster ram is a godsend, also for bf2. you will not notice the difference in day to day running in small apps, maybe with the exception that they may open quicker, but in gaming it will make games load quicker and run smoother, but as for normal pc usage you will probably notice a little increase in certain things, but it comes into its own in gaming and heavy things like that. whatever you do get, you will be happy as your pc is cool.

 

also with a fast cpu, to keep up you are best with fast ram, and a 3700 is a fast cpu.

[Yellonet]

I made a little test. I have DDR400 in my PC but and I underclocked it for the tests. I used Fraps for the average FPS benchmarking.

 

In the BF2 tests I just played as it was impossible to let the same events happen in all the tests. So the difference in FPS for that game may be due to things not happening exactly the same.

 

In LockOn I loaded and benchmarked a certain track so at least in this game the only difference is a slightly shorter loadtime for the faster memory.

But LockOn is a bit special in that it is heavily dependant on the CPU so...

Maybe someone else could make tests like this and we could get some figures on how much difference it is between DDR400 and DDR333.

 

DDR400 (8, 3, 3, 2.5)

 

BF2

Loadtime: 65 s (~10% faster)

Avg. FPS: 46 FPS (15% more)

 

LockOn

Loadtime: 38 s (~15% faster)

Avg. FPS: 17.5 FPS (the same)

 

DDR333 (8, 3, 3, 2.5)

BF2

Loadtime: 69 s

Avg. FPS: 40 FPS

 

LockOn

Loadtime: 44 s

Avg. FPS: 17.5 FPS

[Yellonet]

dude, you are wrong, if you wanna believe what you say, then thats cool with me, but if it was "FASTER" then why the fux would people buy pc3200.

The tests were made when the DDR400 was brand new and the motherboards and CPU's might not have been optimal for 200 MHz RAM as their bus speeds were lower, my guess is that the DDR333 were faster (in some cases) because it was used more efficiently by the rest of the system.

 

 

as for "toms hardware" LMFAO the gheyest nubbest (sponsored)hardware site on the internet. = false reviews as they get paid to give good reviews and to endorse products. even mentioning toms in a benchmark test is just bad ethics man, everyone knows toms is full of shit.

If you say so...

 

i got a few pc's with 3200 and 2700, and the 3200 is always faster. so where you get 333mhz is faster than 400 from, i really dunno. honestly dude, i am dumbfounded, so you can overclock, but then you can overclock 3200 for that matter, but why would you want to overclock and lessen the lifespan of components when he can pop in 3200 and run it at stock and have a full life out of them ?.

If the RAM can handle the extra speed there's no reason why its lifespan would be shorter, at least not that matters. What is the lifespan of typical RAM anyway? 20 years?

 

just because some "tests" say other wise, doesnt mean anything. benchmarks in general mean shit. they do not translate to real world terms.

 

So as far as any benchmark review, you take them with a pinch of salt as they are most probably false compared to real world terms and day to day pc usage.

Benchmarking programs are not to be trusted, but when the benchmarks are made in real games you can at least compare relative speeds between different hardware.

 

btw , i can do the tests your asking for right now, and one pc has a 2800 with pc 3200 and the other is a 2600 with 2700, now practically the same specs, and yet my 2800 pwns my 2600 memory wise.

Are you running the 2800+ with dual channel?

The 2600 doesn't support that I think.

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

Your benchmarks prove my point that indeed pc3200 is faster, but you cant really test using fraps, as that will not give you anything near the difference, as its for something totally different.

 

as you say, the tests were made when 400 was just out, thus making the 333 the better choice for the few months til they got things figured, even today if you were to underclock 3200 to 333 and then compare that to genuine 2700, the 2700 would be faster at that speed, as the underclocked 32 will be slightly less faster than an optimised 2700 running on all pumps, which would make it unhindered compared to the 3200, but that was yesteryear, this is now and you now realise that 3200 is the faster type.

 

Also it is fact that TOMS is biased due to the fact that companies PAY them to review there stuff and also sponsor TOMS, and TOM doesnt want to lose his income by given out a shit review, it is fact that there biased as fux.

 

Unless its premium ram, then you try and overclock to any degree and see how long it lasts to the same type not OC'd, as with a voltage and heat increase, it will kill it sooner rather than later. Ram is rated for a reason, some types are rated at certain speeds, but unless you overclock you will not get those speeds, mushkin redline even says that on there website, that unless you overclock you will not get its rated speed, also most ram is made from crap materials and are not on par with premium OC types of ram that are made to a much higher standard.

 

Even benchmarks that are built into games is also misleading, ive seen me get crazy scores on the first pass, and low scores on the second, when you would think it would be the other way about since the first pass is when everything is loading for the first time into memory and usually the 2nd is the fastest fps.

 

But basically, you have proved my point for me, you said that pc2700 was faster, you did "tests" that proves it not to be the case.

 

and your tests are exactly the same % increase as i said, a absolute max of 25%, but more like 15-20, and you got 15%

 

i am running 2800 in Dc and 2600 single, dual can be easily configed to single by moving 1 stick to a different slot thus making it single channel.

 

now, even after your "tests" do you think with SS's kit that he would be better off with the faster stuff as compared to 2700 as that would probably bottleneck his cpu at some point, as the 3700 is a real fast cpu and 2700 just doesnt cut it with the highend cpu's, hell even 3200 doesnt cut it with that, pc4000 and up would be more what we need, even amd think so thats why there moving to ddr2 in the next couple of months with there new m2 mobos.

[504MrWolf]

i aint taking no chances with my Corsair DDR XMS3700 466MHZ.........am gunna down-grade to PC133 straight away and enjoy Lockon as it should be played !! ;)

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

heh wolfie, i got pc 100 and lower in a couple old pc's i have here, things are monster fast, i just wish they would fit in this thing, imagine the uber magic speed id get from them, but since am speakin to you via msn, you already know that :p

[504MrWolf]

MSN ? You on crack ?

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

shit, aim then :p or was it gheyOL :D

[emenance]

right , we were building 333mhz systems in 2001 , its obsolete. This is a funny debate I was overclocking pc2700 in 2001 trying to hit 200 fsb some did with the right stuff and mb combo spicifically kingston hyper x was the stuff to have back then.

 

WE still cant discount potential , the early pc2700 chips do not have the potential pc3200 has thanks to new tech. For example my pc3200 has potential of 540 ddr!!!! Pc 2700 may or may not have more potential now then it did in 2001 but why even go there. 200 fsb or even the sweet 185 fsb was pushing your luck and risking a corrupt os back then I know I myself and many of my buddys ruined over 100 ADMITTED OS installs overclocking pc2700. :) I can assure you our benchs and observations beat the stock results of pc2700.....heee heheh ee witness the corrupt installs for proof.

 

Last... toms hardware is regarded by alot of people as unreliable and sometimes just not in the groves of reality.

[emenance]

The lower the numbers, the quicker it works and

 

I have heard real bad things bout OCZ ram, they are supposed to be crap and they only were good when they got reviewed as they sent the sites hand selected ram that worked, everyone I know personally who has had OCZ ram hated it for its crappyness and eventually got it rma'd even that was a pain in the ass. Saying that, I havent personally had that type so i cant make a judgement for myself.

.

Thats old school, OCZ was pulling some shady stuff years ago but they changed and the rev 2 platinum ram with tccd chips at newegg is about 150 bucks now and does 500 ddr . Many people using OCZ stuff now on high dollar systems. actually the ram will do 270 fsb stable. I run mine at 733 2.5 Stock is 2225 but thats at 400 ddr :) Actually Im asking a guy right now who is running a soltek 939 useing my memory at 2335 how in the hell he is doing it ,its got to be the board. I dont think a 3500 at 11 x 230 would make a diff!!!!! well ..............its an odd setup isnt it.

[Yellonet]

But basically, you have proved my point for me, you said that pc2700 was faster, you did "tests" that proves it not to be the case.

I said that PC2700 were faster in some areas. Today that might not be true as many systems run FSB, main bus and memory all on 200 MHz, I knew from the start that PC3200 were faster in most areas, but I underestimated the difference somewhat, which seems to suggest 10-15% difference, but if you are right that 'real' PC2700 are faster than downclocked PC3200 the actual difference might be even smaller.

And while the difference is measurable, it is probably not noticable in day to day gaming which makes it, to me, quite insignificant. Which is what I said from the start. Faster RAM is important, but no way near the top of importance.

 

But yeah sumoscouse, you should upgrade to 3200 if you don't have anything else to upgrade. I wonder though, what would be best... 1 GB DDR400 or 2 GB DDR333, maybe you can test that after you get the new memory?