The vortex trap

[Mogster]

Agreed, it just needs some fine tuning.

[jib]

I have heard US military commentators say that when the Huey was first desinged in the 50's they never really envisiged it being used in direct combat operations.

If when you are maneuvering you think of it more like a big old school bus than a combat helicoptor you will probelby have more luck not falling out of the sky.

[thrawn]

I have heard US military commentators say that when the Huey was first desinged in the 50's they never really envisiged it being used in direct combat operations.

If when you are maneuvering you think of it more like a big old school bus than a combat helicoptor you will probelby have more luck not falling out of the sky.

 

Alright, now we're going to need a magic school bus skin for the Huey. any volunteers to make that?

[outlawal2]

I have heard US military commentators say that when the Huey was first desinged in the 50's they never really envisiged it being used in direct combat operations.

If when you are maneuvering you think of it more like a big old school bus than a combat helicoptor you will probelby have more luck not falling out of the sky.

 

And once again that is all fine and dandy but you really need to read ALL of the posts. The point of this thread is to ensure that the final product is as REALISTIC as possible.. In it's current state it is not realistic as has been stated multiple times by more than just myself.

 

Once again... I have personal experience with a Robinson R22 and the R22 in real life is MUCH more difficult to reach VRS and or settling with power than this UH1H simulation is.

 

Once again... Many real life pilots have stated that the REAL UH1H is quite difficult to reach VRS (MUCH more difficult than the R22)

 

Continuing the linear thought here... If in real life the Huey is actually more difficult to reach VRS than an R22, then I can tell you based on my experience that the simulation currently is not accurate and needs to be tweaked to tone down the VRS.

[Rogue Trooper]

We need a Huey pilots input fast before the R22 gets modelled!

[TimeKilla]

Yup I think some forget the dev team has real Huey pilots helping giving them input.

 

It wont just be changed because someone disagrees or does not like the current model if you have proof its off please post it and were talking about technical papers/specs for the huey and such.

 

No point just saying it's off that don't help.

[outlawal2]

Yup I think some forget the dev team has real Huey pilots helping giving them input.

 

It wont just be changed because someone disagrees or does not like the current model if you have proof its off please post it and were talking about technical papers/specs for the huey and such.

 

No point just saying it's off that don't help.

 

 

And exactly what kind of PROOF are you looking for? Maybe the fact that I have actually FLOWN the R22 and can tell you from my own experience that it is MUCH less likely by a magnitude to reach VRS state than the sim does? And the fact that MANY actual Huey pilots say that the Huey is quite difficult to reach VRS... Moreso than the R22?

 

Exactly what further PROOF do you expect? The facts are what they are...

Now if everyone wants to just ignore it and put their collective heads in the sand, fine, but if realism is wanted then it needs to be addressed.

 

Why do people weigh in on this again and again without actually reading what has been stated?

[outlawal2]

OK let's recap and see if I can get this thru...

REAL HELICOPTER FACTS:

REAL HUEY PILOTS SAY:

“The Huey is not easy to reach VRS state and we don't really worry about it.

The R22 is much more likely to reach VRS than the Huey is.”

I SAY:

I have NEVER accidentally reached VRS state in an R22. The only time I have ever reached this state is when I tried to.

So the conclusion that can be made from these statements is that the HUEY is generally more difficult reach VRS state than an R22 is.

UH-1H SIMULATION:

EVERY TIME I fly this simulation I hit VRS or settling with power by accident. Not once in a while, not a few times.. EVERY TIME.

Now unless you are going to call every real life Huey pilot that has commented LIARS.. (Nope I don’t think so)

OR

You are going to call me a LIAR (Once again, nope I am not)

THEN

The only logical conclusion is that there is something amiss with the simulation and it needs to be looked at.

If the above isn’t simple enough and linear enough to make you understand then there is nothing I can do to help you and I give up…

[jay43]

VRS no problem with current model infact I never get into it I can pull this puppy into a hoover at any height and come down nice and steady into ground effect hover not once entering VRS.

It is by all accounts so easy to stay out of VRS you just have to learn to balance the collective with your AS and decent rate.

Like this,

 

Drop collective gently not suddenly

Pull back on stick 10 degrees nose up keep it there nice and steady a little pedal to maintain direction

At this point eyes on AS when it hits 60knts its going to suddenly drop very quick

So at 60knts pull up on the collective watching decent rate it will go up a little then down forget its going up and keep easing up the collective until you maintain a stable decent rate of 500

Nose should now be level in ADI check your position and keep checking decent rate maintain 500 and she will gently lower into ground effect hover and then nice and gently onto the deck perfect everytime

 

If you don't believe me lets get together and you can follow me in.

[Rogue Trooper]

Are you hitting VRS with a full weapon load or an empty Huey?

I rarely hit VRS since the last update, and when I do I can power out of it easy.

[JoeDiamond]

EVERY TIME I fly this simulation I hit VRS or settling with power by accident. Not once in a while, not a few times.. EVERY TIME.

 

If this is happening to you every time I would consider the element that is common to all your approaches, the pilot. You need to post a track of this happening to you to rule out your technique as the cause.

[Garuda]

OK let's recap and see if I can get this thru...

REAL HELICOPTER FACTS:

REAL HUEY PILOTS SAY:

“The Huey is not easy to reach VRS state and we don't really worry about it.

The R22 is much more likely to reach VRS than the Huey is.”

I SAY:

I have NEVER accidentally reached VRS state in an R22. The only time I have ever reached this state is when I tried to.

So the conclusion that can be made from these statements is that the HUEY is generally more difficult reach VRS state than an R22 is.

UH-1H SIMULATION:

EVERY TIME I fly this simulation I hit VRS or settling with power by accident. Not once in a while, not a few times.. EVERY TIME.

Now unless you are going to call every real life Huey pilot that has commented LIARS.. (Nope I don’t think so)

OR

You are going to call me a LIAR (Once again, nope I am not)

THEN

The only logical conclusion is that there is something amiss with the simulation and it needs to be looked at.

If the above isn’t simple enough and linear enough to make you understand then there is nothing I can do to help you and I give up…

 

Just so you don't feel like you're crazy I'll comment and say that I agree with you. I am not a Huey pilot, I am a flight instructor and all my flight experience is in the R22 and R44. At no point in all of my flying time have I ever felt I was even on the verge of potentially entering a VRS, except for like you when purposefully demonstrating it. Even when intentionally doing it, the increase in descent rate is not anywhere near as fast as it is in this sim. Once a student gains some proficiency in the recovery (usually only takes them 2 or 3 tries) they tend to lose only 100ft of altitude from when the VRS developed.

 

The R44 is even better off than the R22. Even on hot days flying at max gross weight it can be difficult to induce a VRS. I know the sim is a work in progress which is why I didn't ever feel the need to comment before, but I agree with all those who want this to be as realistic as possible, not difficult just for the sake of being difficult. The whole transition out of ETL to an IGE hover is very difficult in this sim. In my flying experience, the only thing you need to worry about during transition to a hover is that you apply continuous smooth left pedal to prevent the helicopter from yawing to the right.

[Rogue Trooper]

I can predict this current FM easily and use it as part of my hover/landing regime.

 

In fact it is sweet when she drops and you ride her in.

[outlawal2]

If this is happening to you every time I would consider the element that is common to all your approaches, the pilot. You need to post a track of this happening to you to rule out your technique as the cause.

 

 

So if it is the pilot (ME) why is it NOT happening in real life in the R22 Robinson which as stated multiple times, is supposedly EASIER to reach VRS than the Huey is?

 

People really need to stop commenting unless they are from Belsimtek as this is getting tiring..

[outlawal2]

Just so you don't feel like you're crazy I'll comment and say that I agree with you. I am not a Huey pilot, I am a flight instructor and all my flight experience is in the R22 and R44. At no point in all of my flying time have I ever felt I was even on the verge of potentially entering a VRS, except for like you when purposefully demonstrating it. Even when intentionally doing it, the increase in descent rate is not anywhere near as fast as it is in this sim. Once a student gains some proficiency in the recovery (usually only takes them 2 or 3 tries) they tend to lose only 100ft of altitude from when the VRS developed.

 

The R44 is even better off than the R22. Even on hot days flying at max gross weight it can be difficult to induce a VRS. I know the sim is a work in progress which is why I didn't ever feel the need to comment before, but I agree with all those who want this to be as realistic as possible, not difficult just for the sake of being difficult. The whole transition out of ETL to an IGE hover is very difficult in this sim. In my flying experience, the only thing you need to worry about during transition to a hover is that you apply continuous smooth left pedal to prevent the helicopter from yawing to the right.

 

THANK YOU

 

A reasonable response from a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR..

For the record I have not ever thought I was crazy, I am simply GOING crazy due to remarks and responses that are illogical or clearly have not read the previous posts in the first place...

Thank you for a logical comment from an experienced individual..

 

ONCE AGAIN:

Something is amiss

[Rogue Trooper]

I agree that a huey pilot is needed here.

but for sure a 1,000lbs chopper Vs a 5,914 chopper... once VRS is entered there is a whole different inertia equation that kicks in.

[jay43]

Are you sure you're not just forgetting this is just a game all be it a SIM game which is designed to simulate as near to possible as the programing permits and limitations of the virtual world, the real thing.

You just can not compare a game to real life its impossible its meant to be as close as they can get it to real life and I for one think they have done a darn fine job so far.

Granted there Is some tweaking still to be done and other things to factored into the Huey but its just a game.

You want reality then go and fly a real Huey or pay for a day in a super state of the art industry simulator the type real pilots have to learn in as even they are not entirely 100% real life.

[Rogue Trooper]

But the important question is... is this a huey with no weapons and just 4 men on board that you are talking about?

 

Or are you talking about chain gun death and full compliment of troops?

[outlawal2]

Are you sure you're not just forgetting this is just a game all be it a SIM game which is designed to simulate as near to possible as the programing permits and limitations of the virtual world, the real thing.

You just can not compare a game to real life its impossible its meant to be as close as they can get it to real life and I for one think they have done a darn fine job so far.

Granted there Is some tweaking still to be done and other things to factored into the Huey but its just a game.

You want reality then go and fly a real Huey or pay for a day in a super state of the art industry simulator the type real pilots have to learn in as even they are not entirely 100% real life.

 

Yes I am sure I am not forgetting anything.. the Black Shark manages to not kill you every time with VRS.. (And I don't want to hear about how the shark aerodynamicallyis different blah blah blah.. ) THIS SIM CAN be made to be realistic. This is not a programming deficiency, it is a changeable error of some kind. This is also a BETA and as such stuff happens. I am good with that. I am certain that Belsimtek can fix this issue and make this module the best one DCS has offered, but they can only fix it if they know about the issue... Constantly picking my assessments apart do not help this situation especially when it is as far off as it currently is. If this was close I would leave it be, but it currently is way off reality.. and that is a damn shame as the rest of the sim is spot-on... And as for a "State of the art simulator," Once again people REALLY NEED TO READ THE POSTS. I HAVE FLOWN A REAL HELICOPTER I don't need a friggin simulator to tell me what I have alreday experienced in real life

[BIGNEWY]

relax

 

its still W.I.P

[outlawal2]

relax

 

its still W.I.P

 

That is all I have been asking for is a response back saying that Belsimtek had not closed the door on this issue as it still truly is an issue..

 

What I have eded up with is a long thread of posters that don't read or don't comprehend and waste my time with theories that are irrelevant or completely illogical.

 

THAT is what gets me ticked...

My assessment is correct and the logic is sound.. All the rest of these folks need to stop commenting unless it is pertinent to fixing the identified issue..

[Garuda]

I agree that a huey pilot is needed here.

but for sure a 1,000lbs chopper Vs a 5,914 chopper... once VRS is entered there is a whole different inertia equation that kicks in.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. VRS is entered when upward flow of air near the rotor hub exceeds induced flow causing an excessively high AoA near the blade root causing it to stall. What do you mean by inertia equation? If anything, a heavier helicopter would need to produce more lift to hover, meaning more induced flow velocity, meaning more difficult to enter VRS.

[Weta43]

First – the Huey FM is still a WIP..

 

Then:

REAL HUEY PILOTS SAY:

“The Huey is not easy to reach VRS state and we don't really worry about it.

There are a number of the the Testers / Devs that have flight experience in Hueys – a couple of them very significant experience. They have had / continue to have / input on the VRS tuning.

 

EVERY TIME I fly this simulation I hit VRS or settling with power by accident. Not once in a while, not a few times.. EVERY TIME.

Given that most people are not hitting VRS EVERY TIME they fly, I can only think that you’re carrying physical input patterns from your real life flight experience into the sim, and these are causing inputs in sim that don’t correspond with your intended inputs.

To me this points to a limitation in the input devices that you are forced to use, rather than necessarily to errors in the FM.

 

 

Now unless you are going to call every real life Huey pilot that has commented LIARS.. (Nope I don’t think so)

OR

You are going to call me a LIAR (Once again, nope I am not)

 

Now this is just a false choice :). There is a third option – that the lack of other cues available to you in real life flight ( in real life you don’t have to watch instruments to know you just started losing altitude), together with the input issue I raised above, is causing you to have trouble adjusting to the sim.

 

THEN

The only logical conclusion is that there is something amiss with the simulation and it needs to be looked at.

If the above isn’t simple enough and linear enough to make you understand then there is nothing I can do to help you and I give up…

 

…Exactly what further PROOF do you expect? The facts are what they are...

Now if everyone wants to just ignore it and put their collective heads in the sand, fine, but if realism is wanted then it needs to be addressed.

 

I don't think anyone said a significant FM error wasn't a possibility, just that other people's experience wasn't pointing that way.

 

Proof would be a track in which you demonstrated that you entered VRS with a vertical velocity below that which should VRS would be entered in real life, or under other circumstances that you feel to be "wrong" and why you think this is wrong ( like - are you having to add more collective than you expect to maintain altitude as you lose transitional lift ? )

 

If you could provide a track showing this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Weta43

[JoeDiamond]

So if it is the pilot (ME) why is it NOT happening in real life in the R22 Robinson which as stated multiple times, is supposedly EASIER to reach VRS than the Huey is?

 

People really need to stop commenting unless they are from Belsimtek as this is getting tiring..

 

You could quite easily prove your case and rule out error on your part by posting a track, but you seem to be reluctant to do so.

[Rogue Trooper]

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. VRS is entered when upward flow of air near the rotor hub exceeds induced flow causing an excessively high AoA near the blade root causing it to stall. What do you mean by inertia equation? If anything, a heavier helicopter would need to produce more lift to hover, meaning more induced flow velocity, meaning more difficult to enter VRS.

 

For me it is easy to avoid VRS as I concentrate on not hitting too high a negative VVI whilst decelerating.

 

I find transition smooth and clean and I just rarely see VRS.

I always concentrate on an fixed external object.

Perhaps I adapted to the FM in my virtual cockpit world.

Perhaps my choppers weight stops me getting into VRS.

 

but to answer your question: yes I need to really push it to enter VRS.

And yes once I made the mistake of getting into VRS I find it hard.... very hard to get out off it.... Inertia.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Rogue Trooper