Empoyment doctrin of the Su-25

[mvsgas]

At first I did not realize this was such an old thread. I love the SU-25

Kh-29L is not a weapons of choice. It is big, but it has a very short range (6 to 8 KM IIRC) and you have to fire them in pair, if not, the asymmetric loading can get you into a spin, specially if your defending from a SAM. I try to stick to Kh-25ml if I want to engage air defense threats. They have a better range ( I think is 10 to 12 km, not sure) and is easier to use one missile at a time.

 

I also try to overfly the target at higher altitude (4km to 5km high) and plan an ingress/egress. Also looking for anything shooting at me. Normally the small vehicle/dots that you see are air defense ( MANPAD, Avengers, etc)

Edited March 21, 2010 by mvsgas

[Dr_Arrow]

I also use high attack profile with bombs. I have also found that you can start to pull up when the CCRP timer starts to countdown. Although you have to have a good feeling for it, because if you pull too fast or too early, the bombs won't release. But, in this way I can pull up at 4000 (starting at 5k) and loft bombs from 6-7 kms of the target.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Dr_Arrow

[Boberro]

At first I did not realize this was such an old thread. I love the SU-25

Kh-29L is not a weapons of choice. It is big, but it has a very short range (6 to 8 KM IIRC) and you have to fire them in pair, if not, the asymmetric loading can get you into a spin, specially if your defending from a SAM. I try to stick to Kh-25ml if I want to engage air defense threats. They have a better range ( I think is 10 to 12 km, not sure) and is easier to use one missile at a time.

 

Kh-29 has a uber slow decrease speed rate. It can be fired from up to 15 km (high alt) but L version usually can be fired from at least 9 km in low alt... so you can fire missile and later when you close to target aim it precisely.

 

Kh-25 ML can be fired up to 22 km IIRC so :D

 

 

PS. Soon I'll shot you down :)

[Griffin]

Attack pattern for a training flight posted by a Su-25 pilot Mihail Pavlov aka KUSLIN2 in Russian forums:

 

"The maneuver is called Ромашка = Chamomile. The group does a left climbing turn to 3500 m. The leader of first pair dives and on attack course calls "On attack 360" (attack course) on radio. Immediately the second one goes into a dive. The first one launches and calls "Launch" on radio". The second calls "On attack 255" and the third one goes into a dive etc... The leader of the group finishes the "Chamomile" after the wingman of the second pair. The advantage is that there is constantly one aircraft on the attack course. The disadvantages - this maneuver requires excellent teamwork, following the exact parameters and constantly knowing where the rest 3 aircraft of the group are. This is one of the many maneuvers used on training sorties."

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?...postcount=2081

Маневр называется "Ромашка" Группа в левом вираже над целью на Н-3500м.Ведущий сваливает в пикирование и на боевом докладывает в эфир "На боевом 360"(боевой курс),сразу же вводит в пикиривание второй,пускает первый с докладом - "Пуск",второй - доклад - "На боевом - 255",вводит в пикирование третий...и тд. Ведущий группы замыкает "Ромашку" за ведомым второй пары.Достоинства - на боевом курсе постоянно "висит" самолет,недостатки - этот маневр требует отличного взаимодействия,точного выдерживания заданных параметров и необходимость постоянно держать в поле зрения 3 самолета своей группы.На ЛТУ применялись различные маневры.. Пример..

 

Table in the upper left corner has names of pilots, callsigns and payload.

In the bottom left corner is the formation on route.

In the middle is the formation during attack.

The bottom right corner indicates targets for each aircraft I believe.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Griffin

[Dr_Arrow]

Great post - surely it is a very interesting attack pattern. I would just like to know what is the latteral distance from target in time of separation of the two flights. Its advantage probably is that you can check the target and its defense before the attack and splitting up confuses target defense even more. The main disadvantage is the lack of surprise. Probably not executable with presence of manpads or other short range IR missiles.

[104th_Crunch]

I know what you mean, you have to time it just right to avoid coming into range of MANPAD's etc. I usually start out at 3000m or just above with a 15 degree dive at slow speed with brakes extended, sometimes with flaps at one notch too to help slow rate of decent at slower airspeeds...

 

Also, the half flaps will increase your max AOA so you can turn harder if you need to go defensive. You can also crank left or right after firing to the maximum allowable +/-12 degrees (i think that is correct, not in the manual but that is what a google search shows) before you loose laser lock to further decrease your closure rate as your missile guides to target.

 

Attack pattern for a training flight posted by a Su-25 pilot KUSLIN2 in Russian forums...

 

That is awesome Griffen!

Edited March 22, 2010 by Crunch

[mvsgas]

 

Did I understand that correctly? They wouldn't recover from the attack dive until 350m AGL?

 

Is it just me or that is very close?

[Moa]

Su-25 attacks from medium altitude as earlier posters have said. Attacking from very low doesn't work well at all. Good against insurgents and poorly armed opponents.

 

Against the "most probable opponent" of the Cold War the Frog had very low chances of survival if attacking from medium altitude (everybody did, so all NATO aircraft from B-52 to F-15E were taught to fly low to very low). Fortunately this density of units can't be simulated in LockOn due to the single-thread constraint. So the Frog can do a good job in the game scenarios that can be built (not the same as doing well in The Big War, although plenty of folk don't seem to grok this).

 

Contrast A-10 which can attack also from medium altitude (eg. Gulf War) once (stealth) SEAD has cleared the way, but also works admirably from 100-200 feet as in the Central Europe Cold War scenario.

 

So yes, I see main difference in scenario design between Hog and Frog as employment altitude and targets (tanks for Hog since F-16s get buildings and SAMs, vs light targets for Frog).

[Griffin]

I was a bit lazy to translate the whole post where that picture is taken from. I'll try now as well as I can. Correct me if I misunderstood something. I hope it makes sense. It's a not totally clear to me in Russian either.

 

"The maneuver is called Ромашка = Chamomile. The group does a left climbing turn to 3500 m. The leader of first pair dives and on attack course calls "On attack 360" (attack course) on radio. Immediately the second one goes into a dive. The first one launches and calls "Launch" on radio". The second calls "On attack 255" and the third one goes into a dive etc... The leader of the group finishes the "Chamomile" after the wingman of the second pair. The advantage is that there is constantly one aircraft on the attack course. The disadvantages - this maneuver requires excellent teamwork, following the exact parameters and constantly knowing where the rest 3 aircraft of the group are. This is one of the many maneuvers used on training sorties."

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=831115&postcount=2081

Маневр называется "Ромашка" Группа в левом вираже над целью на Н-3500м.Ведущий сваливает в пикирование и на боевом докладывает в эфир "На боевом 360"(боевой курс),сразу же вводит в пикиривание второй,пускает первый с докладом - "Пуск",второй - доклад - "На боевом - 255",вводит в пикирование третий...и тд. Ведущий группы замыкает "Ромашку" за ведомым второй пары.Достоинства - на боевом курсе постоянно "висит" самолет,недостатки - этот маневр требует отличного взаимодействия,точного выдерживания заданных параметров и необходимость постоянно держать в поле зрения 3 самолета своей группы.На ЛТУ применялись различные маневры.. Пример..

 

Also check out

from Chechnya. Some are raw footage of single sorties and others are collections from various engagements with music.

[mvsgas]

thank you

[Duality]

Griffin,

 

Thanks for the YouTube link, those were some nice videos.

[Dr_Arrow]

This video is very interesting:

 

Especially the HUD footage and symbolics is very different from T-Frog, it looks like Su-25SM

[Distiler]

I was a bit lazy to translate the whole post where that picture is taken from. I'll try now as well as I can. Correct me if I misunderstood something. I hope it makes sense. It's a not totally clear to me in Russian either.

 

"The maneuver is called Ромашка = Chamomile. The group does a left climbing turn to 3500 m. The leader of first pair dives and on attack course calls "On attack 360" (attack course) on radio. Immediately the second one goes into a dive. The first one launches and calls "Launch" on radio". The second calls "On attack 255" and the third one goes into a dive etc... The leader of the group finishes the "Chamomile" after the wingman of the second pair. The advantage is that there is constantly one aircraft on the attack course. The disadvantages - this maneuver requires excellent teamwork, following the exact parameters and constantly knowing where the rest 3 aircraft of the group are. This is one of the many maneuvers used on training sorties."

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=831115&postcount=2081

 

 

Also check out

from Chechnya. Some are raw footage of single sorties and others are collections from various engagements with music.

 

The original text says 3500m just before the attack dive, but the picture shows 1500m. Am I wrong?

[Griffin]

The original text says 3500m just before the attack dive, but the picture shows 1500m. Am I wrong?

Could be a typo or they actually used higher altitudes.

 

Another translation:

"In combat environment all attacks were started from high altitude 3800, 4200, 5100 m (depending on the target elevation). Dive bombing attacks were started by banking 120-130 degrees and diving at a 45-60 degree angle. When shooting rockets or cannon, the bank and dive angle is smaller (you can see it well in the videos). The maneuver is estimated by the angle and location of the target with the pilot's eyes."

В боевых условиях все атаки выполняются сходу,т.е подход к цели на большой высоте 3800,4200,5100 м.(в зависимости от превышения цели).Ввод в пикирование при БМ выполняется с креном 120 - 130 градусов .Пикирование углом 45-60 гр.При стрельбе НАР и ВПУ крен на вводе и угол пикирования меньше( в роликах это хорошо видно ),рассчет маневра выполняется по проекции угла и места цели и глаз летчика..