Which Documentary is a Lie?

[H-var]

Hello forum,

 

I have been watching some documentaries about first jet fighters and found a funny thing - American documentary tells how 3 jet fighters killed like 50 of North Korean MiGs, while the Russian documentary shows how 3 jet fighters frightened a horde of American jets, and made them run home for their lives.

 

Here are the two documentaries for your comparison. Feel free to leave your thoughts about this.

Thank you.

 

[Kuky]

I am sure both sides are exaggerated although I am somehow inclined to believe US side less (won't go into reasons why I think like this)

[AlphaOneSix]

Well obviously 3 fighters can't take down 50 with a single load of fuel and ammo, The North Koreans would have had to loiter around and wait for the Americans to come back with more bullets. So obviously that's not true.

 

But I am likewise skeptical that 3 fighters could "frighten a horde" of other planes. What's a "horde"? How do you know they were "frightened" and "running home for their lives"? Was someone nice enough to tow a banner that said "We're scared so we're fleeing, kthxbye!"?

 

So I would say that both accounts start on a basis of some truth, and then are exaggerated wildly from there, sort of like P-47s flipping over tanks with their .50s.

 

And for the record, I have a slow Internet connection, so I didn't actually watch the videos.

[BIGNEWY]

The mistake is to trust either of them as the truth.

 

If it comes from government sources assume it is a lie and you will be right every time :music_whistling:

[Feuerfalke]

Neither.

 

The truth lies in between. ;)

[Cookie]

It´s the pilot, not the machine.

[PeterP]

Which Documentary is a Lie?

OK - I now watched them both - please don't mind if I rephrase your question. ;)

 

Subject #1 says 2+2 = 4.5

while

Subject #2 says 2+2 = 3.5

 

Who is closer to the truth ?!

Edited July 13, 2013 by PeterP

[159th_Falcon]

OK - I now watched them both - please don't mind if I rephrase your question. ;)

 

Subject #1 says 2+2 = 4.5

while

Subject #2 says 2+2 = 3.5

 

Who is closer to the truth ?!

 

Subject two of course.

 

Cause if we round off the numbers subject one will end up whit 5

While Subject two will end up whit 4, which is factually correct.:smartass:

[PeterP]

Subject two of course.

 

Cause if we round off the numbers subject one will end up whit 5

While Subject two will end up whit 4, which is factually correct.:smartass:

 

.. well, don't forget that rounding numbers is a man-made thing.

Numbers aren't interested in 'opinions' ... whatever you do to make them fit.

Numbers are only right or wrong...like Cheech and Chong :D (in most cases)

 

:smartass:

:smartass:

 

EDIT:

 

Edited July 14, 2013 by PeterP

[Feuerfalke]

He knew the truth all along. ;)

 

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com

[ФрогФут]

OK - I now watched them both - please don't mind if I rephrase your question. ;)

 

Subject #1 says 2+2 = 4.5

while

Subject #2 says 2+2 = 3.5

 

Who is closer to the truth ?!

And what does the Party say?

[mvsgas]

Never believe TV documentaries. I love all those shows but they always show erroneous information.

 

Edit,

Think of it like a good movie, I love terminator, does not make it accurate. it sure is entertaining.

Edited July 14, 2013 by mvsgas

[pepin1234]

Never believe TV documentaries. I love all those shows but they always show erroneous information.

 

Edit,

Think of it like a good movie, I love terminator, does not make it accurate. it sure is entertaining.

 

Is not like that. Always there are wrong things, but sometimes you find something serious. The Problem between an european documentary and american documentary is the way to acting and the reaction of both Society. Both minds accept the lies different and both Society fight againts lies different.

 

The actual Journalist System is so dirty and the actual empire use this tool to do a lot of damage to the world. When some goverment want do something against the Journalist lies. Then come the boss of the world and say how must going everything and how must going the Democracy in the world. So...

Edited July 14, 2013 by pepin1234

[vanir]

The Dogfights series is very heavily biased. It doesn't lie exactly, but it definitely misleads by framing conclusions and using selective data, eg. "american firepower, american training, and the enemy doesn't know what hit them" is a typical episode introduction.

 

It plays into popular misconceptions which is what offends me about the show, I'd love a documentary which delivered what that show claims but that one is just entertainment media for an American audience and not a particularly bright one either.

 

The sort of things Dogfights does is takes a combat record where say, one plane is low on fuel and has no manoeuvring reserve, which gets bounced by some American fighters with half tanks and plenty of endurance to play with, then when they go trapsing all around the sky getting elaborate firing positions the narrator will state, "and here the superior manoeuvrability of American planes and superior training of American pilots is punctuated", yet if the roles were reversed an American wouldn't be in a position to do anything different to the enemy pilot or plane because that's the situation he's in.

 

Dogfights repeatedly states combat superiority is all about nationality. Anyone who's actually been in one states it's all about circumstance. The fact the least industrially threatening of the influential European nations (at the time) brought the entire world into an all out war for monopoly of the game board proves this. What Germany achieved in terms of war materiel was mostly gathered from the midwar period onwards, all of it was gathered after 1938 and it wasn't that much until 41. German prewar military strength was a fiction.

But I suppose Dogfights would call that underdog success due to nationality too and miss the point completely.

[wilky510]

This site has alot more Russian bias than people think. So this isn't a good place to get honest answer.

[Strut]

Typical of the current generations most of the "great unwashed" out there would believe nearly anything coming from Hollywood, Bollywood and the Kremlins own movie propaganda unit and from the "idiot Box" Television. Goebbels did the Nazi's proud. Propaganda is used all the time and it is useful in war, all the powers that be use it and it sucks in the unwitting as well as the gullible. You could argue all day about crap like this. Although it is amusing, interesting and in some case obvious that some people enjoy to malign the USA, people seem to forget that the USA did end the war in the Pacific, did lead the west to Victory in Europe, did fly through the Berlin Blockade, and probably is about the only country that has the balls to stand up to any clapped out Banana Republic economy that tries to take pot shots at it. I think some of the analysis here is specious and quite childish and relys on the current fashion of US bashing. Some people should grow up and digest things in the context that they were aimed at. I think the thread is quite offensive in some of the inferred rhetoric. Sounds like more propaganda to me.

[pepin1234]

This site has alot more Russian bias than people think. So this isn't a good place to get honest answer.

 

This site is from ED, and ED have made all what we use in this Simulator. Normally the People have a wish, but when the People/Players see something going wrong. The People could feel the freedom to say what they think.

 

Somebody can cheat the People several times, but not forever. So we can get tired, and you can feel it in the reaction.

[TimeKilla]

Neither.

 

The truth lies in between. ;)

 

+1 Well said.

[REPUBLICANO]

wait a minute. This poll is a non sence with two different questions.

 

First the thread : Which Documentary is a Lie?

 

Then the Poll is called: So which AC were better during the North Korea vs South Korea war?

 

My advise is start again. The questions are complet diference, so the poll have not logic.

Edited July 16, 2013 by REPUBLICANO

[pyates2104]

The general consensus from a number of sources is that the F4 had superior kill ration to the MIG 17 and MIG 21. Whether they were superior aircraft or whether the USA pilots where better is open to conjecture, although the US aircraft where definitely more technologically advanced. (doesn't necessarily mean they where better aircraft) This statistic was also backed up by the Israelis experience in the 1967 Arab Israeli 6 day war.

[pyates2104]

Dumb question by the way..... both documentaries were not 100% factual and contained embellishments. (as most documentaries do)

[pepin1234]

The general consensus from a number of sources is that the F4 had superior kill ration to the MIG 17 and MIG 21. Whether they were superior aircraft or whether the USA pilots where better is open to conjecture, although the US aircraft where definitely more technologically advanced. (doesn't necessarily mean they where better aircraft) This statistic was also backed up by the Israelis experience in the 1967 Arab Israeli 6 day war.

 

You are not right

[Merlin-27]

The general consensus from a number of sources is that the F4 had superior kill ration to the MIG 17 and MIG 21. Whether they were superior aircraft or whether the USA pilots where better is open to conjecture, although the US aircraft where definitely more technologically advanced. (doesn't necessarily mean they where better aircraft) This statistic was also backed up by the Israelis experience in the 1967 Arab Israeli 6 day war.

 

Wasn't the question about the Korean War? I'm not aware of any F-4s being around at that time.

 

Silly question anyways. However, thanks to DCS I bet you can settle it in the sky eventually.

[Kenan]

How do you know they were "frightened" and "running home for their lives"? Was someone nice enough to tow a banner that said "We're scared so we're fleeing, kthxbye!"?

 

There you said it!:lol::lol::lol:

[FanBoy2006.01]

In regard to the question of the forum.

 

As far as I know the F-86 and MiG-15 was very evenly matched. You all know this. In some regards the MiG-15 was better and in some the F-86.

 

The F-86 was a more forgiving aircraft to fly though. Also I think I read it on these forums that the F-86 pilots had G-suits while the MiG-15 pilots didn't. That is a huge advantage.

 

As for 3 MiG-15s chasing off a superior number of F-86s. It sounds possible to me. What if the F-86s were low on fuel and got jumped? RTB.

Also WWII is full of stories where a couple of fighters jumped a superior number of opposing and caused great chaos.

 

As for three F-86 pilots downing 50 MiG-15s. That is also possible.

50/3=16.67

So if you took the three top scoring USA aces you will get a number like that.

 

Remember there is no such thing as a fair fight. Like Vanir said. Circumstances plays a big role in the outcome.

Also you get an experienced pilot killing a novice. This happens on both sides.

 

Also strikers getting taken out by CAP. Or interceptors going after bombers but get bounced by the escort, etc.

 

I must say that I agree more or less with every post in this thread.

That must be some kind of record!