ILS Turned Off in Mission Editor

[Johnpilot]

OK, I had made a mission starting at Kobuleti. No wind, weather, clouds, or precip. I was instructed to use runway 07 and the ILS of 111.50 worked fine. I decided to change my mission a little bit, so I used dynamic weather and when I saved and reloaded the mission I was now using runway 25 due to winds. Upon starting to come back in to land, I tuned in the ILS (I realized I was on the opposing runway) and there was no tone and the flags were pegged as no signal. I thought I had messed up.

 

I reverted to no weather in the mission editor, fired the mission back up using start from runway. I was then placed on runway 07 and the ILS was magically working again.

 

I know they shut off the ILS in the real world if we are using the opposing runway (unless it has a BC component), but I didn't know that the sim did that also. Is this true or have I spaced out totally?

 

Thanks.

 

John

[Maverick-X]

I'd guess Kobuleti only has an ILS for one direction?!

Did you try to approach 07 with different weather settings? I dont think the ILS is shut down in DCS, but perhaps that has changed

[Johnpilot]

Yes, the ILS is for runway 07. The signal however should be received no matter where the aircraft is located as long as it is in the range of the station.

 

I did reset the weather and then the mission was using runway 07 and I recevied the signal.

 

TACAN worked fine as I would expect.

 

John

[Eddie]

The signal however should be received no matter where the aircraft is located as long as it is in the range of the station.

 

No, it shouldn't.

 

ILS, by its very nature, is directional. And more to the point only ILS for the active runway will be operating at an airfield. This is as true in DCS as it is in the real world

[Flamin_Squirrel]

No, it shouldn't.

 

ILS, by its very nature, is directional. And more to the point only ILS for the active runway will be operating at an airfield. This is as true in DCS as it is in the real world

 

Johnpilot is correct. You can receive an ILS DME and morse identifier without being anywhere near the glide path.

[Psyrixx]

I'm under the impression that if the runway that has ILS is not in use, the ILS signal is not broadcast so as not to confuse pilots.

 

At some airports both directions of the runway have ILS, some only one direction has ILS, and at some airports the runways don't have ILS at all, VFR only. If the ILS is broadcast for the glide slope to Runway 07 but the airport is landing and departing aircraft from Runway 25, it would only confuse matters to be broadcasting a glide slope for Runway 07 and have people be lining up to land against the flow of traffic.

 

So Eddie is correct in saying that ILS is directional.

 

However if Runway 07 were in use, the morse signal would be picked up from any bearing to the airport to help you line up with that runway.

 

So Johnpilot is correct in saying that you'll receive the morse signal from wherever you are.

 

But it assumes the runway that uses ILS is an active runway. =)

Edited July 25, 2013 by Psyrixx

[Eddie]

Johnpilot is correct. You can receive an ILS DME and morse identifier without being anywhere near the glide path.

 

Yes, but in the interest of not confusing newbies, ILS (as in localiser and glide path) is directional.

 

Do the ILS stations in DCS have DME support as well? I haven't seen that in the Hog. Correct regarding the morse ID though of course.

[PFunk1606688187]

I've never tried it, but can we run a back course on the ILS localizer?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Do the ILS stations in DCS have DME support as well? I haven't seen that in the Hog. Correct regarding the morse ID though of course.

 

I'm pretty sure DME is there too. I've not double checked though.

[Eddie]

I've never tried it, but can we run a back course on the ILS localizer?

 

Haven't tried for a long time, but IIRC, yes.

[Johnpilot]

I'm going to try and see if the back course would work. The BC is very useful in the cases where there is an overcast deck but it is not too low, so you can "shoot" the BC approach. Alternatively, we have practiced doing the ILS and then when getting under the clouds you just setup a normal pattern to go over to the other runway. It is called an ILS to Circle to Land approach. Once you have established "contact" with the runway environment you can scoot around at 400' if you want to and land. It is done a lot a smaller uncontrolled fields. Of course it is your fault if you clip power lines at 100 feet:)

 

With all the new GPS stuff, it won't be long before a lot of this all goes away.

 

John

[PFunk1606688187]

With all the new GPS stuff, it won't be long before a lot of this all goes away.

 

I hope not. Redundancy is one of those things that defines robust safety. Then again, ILS systems are expensive to maintain so there will be lots of push to get rid of a lot of them.

 

There's also something to be said for having a system thats external to the aircraft for guidance, an actual beam versus a passive awareness of spatial orientation.

[Eddie]

With all the new GPS stuff, it won't be long before a lot of this all goes away.

 

In civil aviation, maybe (but I doubt it), a lot of instrument flying is already RNAV using INS/GPS these days rather than DME/NDB based. For military aviation, where we have to deal with things such as GPS jamming, it certainly won't. We might switch to MLS (some fighters, such as Typhoon, are already MLS capable ) but off aircraft nav aids will never go away.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Eddie

[Headspace]

No, it shouldn't.

 

ILS, by its very nature, is directional. And more to the point only ILS for the active runway will be operating at an airfield. This is as true in DCS as it is in the real world

Johnpilot is correct. You can receive an ILS DME and morse identifier without being anywhere near the glide path.

[/QUOTe]

Squirrel is right here.

 

You can tune and ID the station before getting into the technical service volume of an ILS. The 10deg/18nm / 35deg/10nm indication range means the localizer indication is valid, not that the identifier is audible. It's audible way before then, a lot of the time from angles far beyond the 35 degree limit.

 

This is especially pertinent for approaches that involve a DME arc with an initial fix 90 degrees away from the localizer. It would be very odd if you were unable to tune and ID the signal before you're done with the arc, at a minimum.

 

http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1308/pdf/00470ILD23.PDF

In civil aviation, maybe (but I doubt it), a lot of instrument flying is already RNAV using INS/GPS these days rather than DME/NDB based. For military aviation, where we have to deal with things such as GPS jamming, it certainly won't. We might switch to MLS (some fighters, such as Typhoon, are already MLS capable ) but off aircraft nav aids will never go away.

The MLS is for all intents and purposes nonexistent in civil aviation in the US. With the advent of WAAS, there isn't any cost effective reason to have it. There may be a handful of approaches still in use, funded by people who are local to the approach and who own the equipment to use it.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Headspace

[roadrabbit]

Haven't tried for a long time, but IIRC, yes.

 

From my RW experience some ILS installations will allow a back-course approach, but NOT all. It will depend on the ground station aerial array for the particular ILS. These can be shielded, as I remember, so that a back-course localiser signal is prevented.

 

Wiser heads please advise :smartass:

[eyusuf]

I'm going to try and see if the back course would work. The BC is very useful in the cases where there is an overcast deck but it is not too low, so you can "shoot" the BC approach. Alternatively, we have practiced doing the ILS and then when getting under the clouds you just setup a normal pattern to go over to the other runway. It is called an ILS to Circle to Land approach. Once you have established "contact" with the runway environment you can scoot around at 400' if you want to and land. It is done a lot a smaller uncontrolled fields. Of course it is your fault if you clip power lines at 100 feet:)

 

With all the new GPS stuff, it won't be long before a lot of this all goes away.

 

John

 

JohnPilot? Reely! How about BankerPilot? :music_whistling:

 

Be that as it may, has the question of the disappearing ILS at Kobuleti been addressed? Is the operation of the ILS weather dependent?

 

IMHO this is unrealistic, because in low vis conditions its possible to do a circle to land - as has already been pointed out.

 

And if you're a really brave soul you might even land with a tailwind, but don't be surprised if you overrun the runway, especially in the A10 which has extremely poor braking, especially in the wet (As Ive had to rediscover, with much embarrassment, on a number of occasions).

 

So the question; is there an ILS switch in the mission builder? Or is it weather dependent?

 

:helpsmilie:

[sydost]

I know they shut off the ILS in the real world if we are using the opposing runway (unless it has a BC component), but I didn't know that the sim did that also.

 

When I worked as an air traffic controller I actually never shut down the ILS when the opposite end approach was in use. This just as a universal reminder to not assume things are done the same way everywhere. Actually I hadn't even heard that I should have shut it down. In my country it is normal procedure to have all ILS transmitters on night and day even if the airport has closed for the day.

 

To share my limited wisdom I can say that it is one of the best things I have learned in my short aviation career to not assume things are done the way I am used to in foreign countries or places. And it took quite many errors to learn that one ;) .