BiBa Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 (edited) Isn't weird to see bullets ricochet on water? We heard Jesus walked on water, so maybe the water is holy and Jesus is in the Cockpit!? The Programmers have done a pretty good job in simulating the white mushroom effect when bullets are bouncing on water, which is quite different from those which bounce on the ground with its appropriate ricochets. So if the simulation recognize the difference between hard and liquid surfaces, they only have to delete this beautiful ricochet effect on water, by just deleting this algorithm out of equation. Really no extra work! The advantage out of it is that the Graphic-Card has less calculation to fulfill, which is at the same time a relief of strain to the CPU. So For the sake of total reality, think about in the next Update. Additional Edit To avoid any further misunderstanding and bevor any transverse reader gets the wrong picture: in my reply further down on this page, I've cleared out what I think is not real in the Ricochet visualisation when I've said: "The ricochets I'm talking about are happening in DCS at an angle > 30°!" My statement above is ambivalent, but it does not exclude the fact that Bullet do ricochet on water! I've also clarified this point of view in my reply on Page 6, 07-31-2013, 02:15 AM "Also the Ricochet's deflection in DCS springs up 45° off the water should be a lot flatter. " The scientific outcome of Ricochet researches on water corner incoming Bullets angle between 0° & <18° Edited August 1, 2013 by Biba 1 BiBa...............BigBang WIN 11-64 Pro. MoBo: ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING. SSD: LEXAR 790 4TB. CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K. GPU: MANLI RTX 2080 Ti. RAM: HyperX 3200 MHz 64 GB. Monitor: ASUS 4K 28"/VR: Pimax 4K/TrackIR-5/SAITEK X55-Yoke-Rudder-Trim Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaOneSix Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Well, bullets *do* ricochet off water... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin-27 Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 yup. Run a search for it on here. It has been discussed at length. Now, there was some debate of what angles are too extreme for rounds to skip off the water.... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] [Dogs of War] WWII COMBAT SERVER | P-51D - FW190-D9 - Me109-K4 Visit Our Website & Forum to Get More Info & Team Speak Access Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiBa Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 (edited) Well, bullets *do* ricochet off water... Maybe the blunt headed one hitting the water at an angle of less than 10°. All type of guns used in DCS have pointed projectiles! The rest may only happens in your dreams with a little bit magic... Additional Edit It was a misplaced unnecessary sarcasm... Apologies Also pointed headed Bullets do ricochet. I was wrong. Edited August 1, 2013 by Biba 1 BiBa...............BigBang WIN 11-64 Pro. MoBo: ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING. SSD: LEXAR 790 4TB. CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K. GPU: MANLI RTX 2080 Ti. RAM: HyperX 3200 MHz 64 GB. Monitor: ASUS 4K 28"/VR: Pimax 4K/TrackIR-5/SAITEK X55-Yoke-Rudder-Trim Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisse Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Bullets do bounce on water, even the pointy ones. A 5.56 NATO can change it's flightpath as much as 90 degrees by only hitting a small branch on a bush. You will have to give us some kind of proof to prove your statement to us if we are going to belive you, but that might not be easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Maybe the blunt headed one hitting the water at an angle of less than 10°. All type of guns used in DCS have pointed projectiles! The rest may only happens in your dreams with a little bit magic... :doh: Think again...... Better yet, do your homework. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted July 30, 2013 ED Team Share Posted July 30, 2013 Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiBa Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 Think again......Better yet, do your homework. ...I see now there have been four other debates on this issue... But I can guarantee you that I, personally have witnessed for hours how some guys sitting in a small boat were fishing with an M16! I didn't witness not one single ricochet! The shooting angle was not > 30°. No need to mention that the velocity of an M16 bullet is a lot less than the caliber of any machine-gun used on planes. The ricochets I'm talking about are happening in DCS at an angle > 30°! BiBa...............BigBang WIN 11-64 Pro. MoBo: ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING. SSD: LEXAR 790 4TB. CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K. GPU: MANLI RTX 2080 Ti. RAM: HyperX 3200 MHz 64 GB. Monitor: ASUS 4K 28"/VR: Pimax 4K/TrackIR-5/SAITEK X55-Yoke-Rudder-Trim Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiBa Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 A very bad example! They were shooting on some targets in the water, and the ricochets you see here are from the bullets hitting the boot! Show me one single video of high caliber velocity projectile >30° ricochet on clear water and you'll win an massage coupon! BiBa...............BigBang WIN 11-64 Pro. MoBo: ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING. SSD: LEXAR 790 4TB. CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K. GPU: MANLI RTX 2080 Ti. RAM: HyperX 3200 MHz 64 GB. Monitor: ASUS 4K 28"/VR: Pimax 4K/TrackIR-5/SAITEK X55-Yoke-Rudder-Trim Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted July 30, 2013 ED Team Share Posted July 30, 2013 Look again, a number of the ricochets are coming off the water... of course your example of fishing with an M16 is much better... so there ya go... Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 (edited) A very bad example! They were shooting on some targets in the water, and the ricochets you see here are from the bullets hitting the boot! Show me one single video of high caliber velocity projectile >30° ricochet on clear water and you'll win an massage coupon! Need proof and better examples ? ...it would have been a good idea to google your own thread title before opening it . Edited July 30, 2013 by PeterP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiBa Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 Bullets do bounce on water, even the pointy ones. A 5.56 NATO can change it's flightpath as much as 90 degrees by only hitting a small branch on a bush. You will have to give us some kind of proof to prove your statement to us if we are going to belive you, but that might not be easy. It's not a matter of a metaphysical belief related issue like for e.g. if G.O.D. exist or not. You can't prove G exists, and you can't prove G doesn't exist. This is a matter of pure physical properties. You can't compare water density to wooden branch. There are thousand of scenery in Films and documentaries, where you see bullets diving in a shallow angle. Show me one clear video evidence on CLEAR water! The water ricochet is a matter of less than 5% event. This is a very thin marge, and the exception should't be the rule. BiBa...............BigBang WIN 11-64 Pro. MoBo: ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING. SSD: LEXAR 790 4TB. CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K. GPU: MANLI RTX 2080 Ti. RAM: HyperX 3200 MHz 64 GB. Monitor: ASUS 4K 28"/VR: Pimax 4K/TrackIR-5/SAITEK X55-Yoke-Rudder-Trim Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkva_55 Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Is that enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiBa Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 Is that enough? The second video is the good example of the 10% angle I mentioned above. The first video, not only it has a bad quality, but is most probably a fake. I'm a camera man and I also work with 3D Max and 2D Photoshop. The bullet that hits the water should cause circular wave disturbances which should make the reflection of the followings turbid. The water surface here remains calm like a mirror. Dump it... BiBa...............BigBang WIN 11-64 Pro. MoBo: ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING. SSD: LEXAR 790 4TB. CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K. GPU: MANLI RTX 2080 Ti. RAM: HyperX 3200 MHz 64 GB. Monitor: ASUS 4K 28"/VR: Pimax 4K/TrackIR-5/SAITEK X55-Yoke-Rudder-Trim Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Case Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 He is so obviously trolling you guys... http://www.masterarms.se A Swedish Combat Flight Simulator Community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchesterdelta1 Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 From the net: Target material Bullets are more likely to ricochet off flat, hard surfaces such as concrete or steel, but a ricochet can occur on almost any surface, including grassy soil, given a flat enough angle of impact. Materials that are soft, give easily, or can absorb the impact, such as sand, have a lower incidence of ricochet.[2] Though it may not be obvious, bullets easily ricochet off water compare stone skipping. Angle: The angle of departure, both vertically and horizontally, is difficult to calculate or predict due to the many variables involved, not the least of which is the deformation of the bullet caused by its impact with the surface it strikes. Ricochets will almost always continue on a somewhat diagonal trajectory to their original trajectory, unless the impact is against a flat surface perpendicular to the angle of incidence (or approach), in which case the angle of reflection depends on the other variables involved. Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EtherealN Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Biba, may I suggest that you give some examples for your position, both regarding reality and the game itself? You have, in this thread, been given replies by several individuals with extensive military background that hold first-hand experience of this. Knowing how to operate a camera is not the same thing as knowing physics or operating weapons. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Daniel "EtherealN" Agorander | Даниэль "эфирныйн" Агорандер Intel i7 2600K @ 4.4GHz, ASUS Sabertooth P67, 8GB Corsair Vengeance @ 1600MHz, ASUS GTX 560Ti DirectCU II 1GB, Samsung 830series 512GB SSD, Corsair AX850w, two BENQ screens and TM HOTAS Warthog DCS: A-10C Warthog FAQ | DCS: P-51D FAQ | Remember to read the Forum Rules | | | Life of a Game Tester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiBa Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 From the net: Target material Bullets are more likely to ricochet off flat, hard surfaces such as concrete or steel, but a ricochet can occur on almost any surface, including grassy soil, given a flat enough angle of impact. Materials that are soft, give easily, or can absorb the impact, such as sand, have a lower incidence of ricochet.[2] Though it may not be obvious, bullets easily ricochet off water compare stone skipping. Angle: The angle of departure, both vertically and horizontally, is difficult to calculate or predict due to the many variables involved, not the least of which is the deformation of the bullet caused by its impact with the surface it strikes. Ricochets will almost always continue on a somewhat diagonal trajectory to their original trajectory, unless the impact is against a flat surface perpendicular to the angle of incidence (or approach), in which case the angle of reflection depends on the other variables involved. This is the type of language I like. So remains to be clarified: At what angle the perpendicular ricochet on water is absorbed! High velocity projectiles hitting a water surface >30° like we witness in DCS is not correct! BiBa...............BigBang WIN 11-64 Pro. MoBo: ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING. SSD: LEXAR 790 4TB. CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K. GPU: MANLI RTX 2080 Ti. RAM: HyperX 3200 MHz 64 GB. Monitor: ASUS 4K 28"/VR: Pimax 4K/TrackIR-5/SAITEK X55-Yoke-Rudder-Trim Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EtherealN Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 The water surface at see is not a smooth plane. Waves mean that even though the flight path of the projectile may be >30 degrees compared to the average of the water, it might actually strike the water at less - and indeed a substantial fraction of the rounds MUST do this. The inverse is true as well for rounds with a <30 degree angle. At ~18 seconds in, there is a shot of a ship being strafed. If you play it slow you can see the rounds that fly past the ship giving both ricochets AND "strikes". If you like, can you tell me at which angle you feel richochets should happen, and supply the physics behind this conclusion? Perhaps show a direct example of what you feel is incorrect (either video or a track)? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Daniel "EtherealN" Agorander | Даниэль "эфирныйн" Агорандер Intel i7 2600K @ 4.4GHz, ASUS Sabertooth P67, 8GB Corsair Vengeance @ 1600MHz, ASUS GTX 560Ti DirectCU II 1GB, Samsung 830series 512GB SSD, Corsair AX850w, two BENQ screens and TM HOTAS Warthog DCS: A-10C Warthog FAQ | DCS: P-51D FAQ | Remember to read the Forum Rules | | | Life of a Game Tester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metheluckydonut Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 it should also be said that not only the bullets ricochet themselves but the magnesium or whatever thy use these days. DCS Wishlist: Ka 26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cichlidfan Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 The water surface at see is not a smooth plane. Waves mean that even though the flight path of the projectile may be >30 degrees compared to the average of the water, it might actually strike the water at less - and indeed a substantial fraction of the rounds MUST do this. The inverse is true as well for rounds with a <30 degree angle. I was wondering when this was going to get mentioned. :thumbup: ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisky One Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 without the intent of sounding like john rambo here: I'm very experienced with firearms and have seen and in some occasions felt my share of ricochets. they occur with a wide range of materials at different velocities and different rounds. Near water I have no experience with ricochets and it is possible.. possibly the angle will have to be small but you never know... If it disturbs you in DCS, as you can't see the bottom in the water let's imagine the water is very low and the richochets are from rocks/coral :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiBa Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 The water surface at see is not a smooth plane. Waves mean that even though the flight path of the projectile may be >30 degrees compared to the average of the water, it might actually strike the water at less - and indeed a substantial fraction of the rounds MUST do this. The inverse is true as well for rounds with a <30 degree angle... ...Well that is indeed a good argument. I wonder if the complexity of water movement has been virtually embedded in the DCS programming with all its sophistication. That alone would set high demands on the CPU... ...At ~18 seconds in, there is a shot of a ship being strafed. If you play it slow you can see the rounds that fly past the ship giving both ricochets AND "strikes"... That is not 100% obvious to see, as some might had razed edges and caused deviation of projectiles. Only shots with high speed camera can give a real objective diagnosis. On other cuts in this video, where shots are far away from any target, you don't see one single ricochet on water! If you like, can you tell me at which angle you feel richochets should happen, and supply the physics behind this conclusion? Perhaps show a direct example of what you feel is incorrect (either video or a track)? I'll make some research to give a 100% reliable evidence on that. On the other hand, next time if I'm on tour abroad as a war photograph, I'll be shooting a reportage extra for you. Here in Germany that won't be possible for now... BiBa...............BigBang WIN 11-64 Pro. MoBo: ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING. SSD: LEXAR 790 4TB. CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K. GPU: MANLI RTX 2080 Ti. RAM: HyperX 3200 MHz 64 GB. Monitor: ASUS 4K 28"/VR: Pimax 4K/TrackIR-5/SAITEK X55-Yoke-Rudder-Trim Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EtherealN Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 ...Well that is indeed a good argument. I wonder if the complexity of water movement has been virtually embedded in the DCS programming with all its sophistication. That alone would set high demands on the CPU... No, it's not, but the point is that it might have been approximated through a transition zone where some projectiles will ricochet even if angle is higher than the "ingame" smooth surface. I don't know for absolute certain if this is the case in DCS, but it is what I would do if I designed the feature. That is not 100% obvious to see, as some might had razed edges and caused deviation of projectiles. Only shots with high speed camera can give a real objective diagnosis. On other cuts in this video, where shots are far away from any target, you don't see one single ricochet on water! That's a moving goalpost. You asked for example, you got it. You can't then require that ALL videos should show it. ;) The thing that has happened here is that you have made the statement that "this is wrong" and then, instead of you showing WHY and HOW it is wrong, you are expecting everyone else to either disprove your statement or be able to show YOU how it is right. This is an inverted burden of proof. I'll make some research to give a 100% reliable evidence on that. On the other hand, next time if I'm on tour abroad as a war photograph, I'll be shooting a reportage extra for you. Here in Germany that won't be possible for now... Another option would be to just get someone to do the physics. I've not seen enough of the equations myself to do it, and am not a physicist so I don't know really how to effectively look for the formulas that might be relevant. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Daniel "EtherealN" Agorander | Даниэль "эфирныйн" Агорандер Intel i7 2600K @ 4.4GHz, ASUS Sabertooth P67, 8GB Corsair Vengeance @ 1600MHz, ASUS GTX 560Ti DirectCU II 1GB, Samsung 830series 512GB SSD, Corsair AX850w, two BENQ screens and TM HOTAS Warthog DCS: A-10C Warthog FAQ | DCS: P-51D FAQ | Remember to read the Forum Rules | | | Life of a Game Tester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiBa Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 Another option would be to just get someone to do the physics. I've not seen enough of the equations myself to do it, and am not a physicist so I don't know really how to effectively look for the formulas that might be relevant. Try this: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/archive/index.php/t-10745.html BiBa...............BigBang WIN 11-64 Pro. MoBo: ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING. SSD: LEXAR 790 4TB. CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K. GPU: MANLI RTX 2080 Ti. RAM: HyperX 3200 MHz 64 GB. Monitor: ASUS 4K 28"/VR: Pimax 4K/TrackIR-5/SAITEK X55-Yoke-Rudder-Trim Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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