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SAM system observations/bugs for A-10/F-15


Guest IguanaKing
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Guest IguanaKing

Hi everybody,

 

I've been spending a little time trying to make a chart to supplement the one in the manual for RWR symbology. The chart in the manual, while good, is incomplete...it often leaves me being illuminated by a threat radar and saying "WTF is that?!! Why isn't it listed in the manual?"

 

In the process of doing this, I am coming across some bugs/inaccuracies. The first, major bug is the Cyrillic/English translation errors. Now, I understand that this is a Russian-made sim, and many of the systems modeled are Russian systems, but a little consistency would be nice. ;) If the Russian system model numbers were all in Cyrillic, that would be fine with me, as I have no trouble reading that. If they were all in the English alphabet (I know it wasn't invented by the English, but, its the alphabet used for the English language ;) ), that would be fine as well. But, when the two are mixed up, as they often are in LOMAC, it leads to confusion when trying to do web research on those systems. I will use the S-300PS system as an example of this problem.

 

54K6- Well...nothing wrong with this, since the K is the same in both languages. :cool:

 

40B6M- Here's where we have our first problem. If its Cyrillic, that's fine, because, in English it IS a 40V6M.

 

40B6MD- See above. :D

 

64H6E- English translation: 64N6E

 

5P85C- Here's where we start mixing. If its Cyrillic, the English translation would be 5R85S...which is not right. The actual English version would be 5P85S, so, there is a mix of Cyrillic and English.

 

5P85D- Same problem with that first letter, is it a Cyrillic "P' (English R), or is it just an English "P". The "D" is also not a character in the Cyrillic alphabet, so this appears to be all English.

 

Then, the missiles for this system are listed as 5V55 and 48N6E, which are both all English.

 

So...if you're confused...I have made my point. :D

 

Another point I found about the listed components of the S-300 in the in-game encyclopedia, is that they incorrectly show 40V6M and 40V6MD as different types of radar. This is inaccurate, as both of these numbers denote different semi-mobile masts. The 40V6M is a 23.8m tall semi-mobile mast, and the 40V6MD is 38.8m tall. Both masts, however, can have 1 of 3 types of radar mounted on them IRL...2, available, in the case of LOMAC. One is the 30N6E (NATO: Flap Lid) engagement radar, this will show on your F-15 TEWS or A-10 RHAW as "10", only when a missile has been launched. In LOMAC this is shown as the 40B6M(40V6M). The other radar that can be mounted on either mast is the 76N6 (NATO: Clam Shell) designation radar, this will show as "CS" once you have been handed off to it by the 64N6E [acquistion radar] (NATO: Big Bird, which shows as "BB" on your TEWS/RHAW). This one is shown in LOMAC as the 40B6MD(40V6MD).

 

So...working slowly through the list, I come to our next system/bug...the Buk M1. The encyclopedia only shows the launcher vehicle, the 9A310M1, but the Mission Editor shows both a launcher and a radar. The radar is kind of an important addition that should be included in the encyclopedia...don't you think? :D In the ME the launcher is shown as the "Buk ln". As the encyclopedia says, the vehicle model number is the 9A310M1. The radar model number, however, is the 9S35M1 (NATO: Fire Dome). It is apparently a radar that will allow the launch vehicle to engage targets autonomously with limited capability. It will show on your TEWS/RHAW as "11", generally when a missile has been launched. Again, it HAS autonomous launch capability, but I haven't yet seen it exhibit this characteristic in LOMAC...once the Buk sr has been eliminated, the battery seems to go blind, deaf, and dumb. Now, the ME object "Buk sr", is the thing that gives the above its teeth. The vehicle/radar number is 9S18M1 (NATO: Snow Drift) and will show on your TEWS/RHAW as "SD" when it is active and within your detection range.

 

Well...that's just an example of the data I am collecting/researching for the chart, in addition to the bugs/inaccuracies I have found so far.

 

Another one, which I won't get into too much detail on (as it will be listed in the chart later on ;) ), is the 9A33 ln Osa.

 

Actually, according to all of the information I have found, it is the 9K33 Osa (NATO: SA-8)...so that's the first bug I noticed. The second, most glaring bug is its capacity. The encyclopedia says it carries 6 missiles in the tubes and has a reload time of 10 minutes. On my test flight against it in LOMAC, a single vehicle launched no less than 13 missiles at me in about a 45 second period. After 6, it should have been toothless for 10 minutes (according to the in-game encyclopedia), but wasn't. I'm not sure how many it would have ultimately launched, since I managed to evade 12 of them...but lucky number 13 got me.

 

OK...that's about all for now. :D I will eventually have a TEWS/RHAW symbology chart made for LOMAC Eagle and Hog drivers and I hope the information in this post helps them a little until then. On the bug/inaccuracy front, I hope the devs will read this and research implementing some changes to correct these problems.

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(Snipped) ...In the ME the launcher is shown as the "Buk ln". As the encyclopedia says, the vehicle model number is the 9A310M1. The radar model number, however, is the 9S35M1 (NATO: Fire Dome). It is apparently a radar that will allow the launch vehicle to engage targets autonomously with limited capability....(Snipped)

As I understand the Buk system, the Buk SR (acquisition radar) hands off the priortized contact(s) to the tracking radar(s) on the launch telar(s). The launch telars have no acquisition radars of their own. IIRC, they do, however, have TV optical sites that allow them limited ability to function independently. The latter is not modelled in the sim. At one point (back in Su-27 Flanker V1.5, I believe), I would occasionally see independent launches. But not since. FWIW, back then I was never able to determine if those launches were by design or a bug.

 

Rich

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg

 

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Guest IguanaKing
As I understand the Buk system, the Buk SR (acquisition radar) hands off the priortized contact(s) to the tracking radar(s) on the launch telar(s). The launch telars have no acquisition radars of their own. IIRC, they do, however, have TV optical sites that allow them limited ability to function independently. The latter is not modelled in the sim. At one point (back in Su-27 Flanker V1.5, I believe), I would occasionally see independent launches. But not since. FWIW, back then I was never able to determine if those launches were by design or a bug.

 

Rich

 

Thanks for the input, Rich. That issue is still up for debate in my mind as well, since I cannot discern any type of radar antenna on the TELARs, but I have found several sites that say Fire Dome is carried on the launchers. I'll go back and see if I can find those again. :cool:

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Guest IguanaKing

Here's a link, http://www.taos-inc.com/airdef.htm#sa-10. Have a look at the SA-11 section regarding the TELAR. BTW...it didn't hit me before, but TELAR denotes a transporter erector launcher that carries a radar. ;)

 

Edit: Nevermind, Rich, I misunderstood what you said before. The TELAR has a radar, but what you were saying is that it has no acquisition radar...got it.;) I'm still not sure if that's absolutely necessary to the system though for attacking an aircraft. I know that it will severely limit its capabilities, but I don't think it will completely negate them if the Fire Dome has to operate on its own. I believe this is one of the reasons it was adopted over the older SA-6.

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Hey IguanaKing, how's it hanging buddy? I'm no expert on the Russian stuff, but here goes....:rolleyes:

 

BUK SYSTEM - You seem to think there is a missing fire control radar vehicle? The launcher vehicle is 9A310M1, it has 4 missiles (9M38) and the funny bump at the front of the rotating turret is the integral 9S35M1 (FIRE DOME) radar. Don't read too much into the autonomous launch thing, FIRE DOME is a fire control radar, it has a narrow radar beam, and so cannot find targets itself, thus it has to be pointed at the right bit of the sky based on data from the SNOW DRIFT radar.

 

A good analogy might be for you to try at night using an A-10 with IR Maverick (FIRE DOME) to search for another aircraft somewhere in the darkness, next to impossible. But in daylight then your eyes (SNOW DRIFT) can guide the pipper onto the target.

 

For the Russians, BUK is a big improvement over KUB primarily for the number of simultaneous engagements. BUK has a fire control radar on each TELAR so can engage a target with each TELAR. KUB has only the one fire control radar on the same vehicle as the search radar and thus a KUB battery can only engage one target at a time.

 

You may like to know that there are some inconsistencies in the way LOMAC shows naval stuff too. Neustrashimy shows up as TP (TOP PLATE) which is OK as when you look at the Neustrashimy's radar on the mast it has two square plates back to back - indeed a TOP PLATE search radar. The Albatross shows as HP (HALF PLATE) which is OK for a Grisha-5.

But the Rezky(Krivak-2 class frigate) shows as TOP PLATE - not correct, it has a HEADNET-C if you look at the ship itself. The later Krivak-3 class (apart from the first two units which had the older HEADNET-C) had the TOP PLATE radar fitted so maybe you can forgive ED that mistake ;)

 

Looking forward to your RWR chart. :)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Sorry Death, you lose! It was Professor Plum....

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Guest IguanaKing
Hey IguanaKing, how's it hanging buddy? I'm no expert on the Russian stuff, but here goes....:rolleyes:

 

BUK SYSTEM - You seem to think there is a missing fire control radar vehicle?

 

Hey BRD :D

 

Everythings good here, how's it hanging with you?

 

Actually I know the radar isn't missing from the game, the Snow Drift vehicle just doesn't seem to be listed in the encyclopedia. Its present in the ME and in the game though. ;) I understand completely about the Fire Dome limitations, but it seems like it might still be possible for an autonomous launch if it were daylight, with clear skies, and you flew right toward it at above 1000' AGL. I would think that if he is the last man standing, he doesn't want to die, so he's going to be trying like hell to knock you down.

 

I'm hoping I'll have the chart finished in the next week or two. Heh...I'm really getting carried away with researching these systems, so its kind of slowing me down a bit. I'm trying to include maximum effective range and altitude of each system in the chart, as well as launcher capacity and reload times. I'm not sure I should continue looking at reload times, since that Gecko I came up against seemed to just fire missiles non-stop.

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A good analogy might be for you to try at night using an A-10 with IR Maverick (FIRE DOME) to search for another aircraft somewhere in the darkness, next to impossible. But in daylight then your eyes (SNOW DRIFT) can guide the pipper onto the target.

 

 

Great analogy... because of this... I learn something new.....

 

thanks

PS.. Until today, a Snow Drift was the direct effect of a snowplow passing by my driveway!

Thanks,

Brett

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Guest IguanaKing

Hmmm...so I'm back to working on the chart, and I'm now trying to chart friendly SAM systems, but my RHAW isn't seeing anything. I figured maybe it was just some magical IFF that knew I was friendly without even so much as pointing the dish at me, so I put up an Su-25T for them to shoot at. Still nothing on the RHAW...they obviously see him though, because they quickly engage him and blow him out of the sky, but I don't hear or see a thing. I even ended up in a dogfight with the Frog near a Patriot battery and saw nothing on the RWR. I was just about to give him a taste of the Avenger when a missile from the Patriot's battery took him out, large as life, right there in front of me. We were on the same bearing from the radar, and were merged...and I didn't hear or see a single thing on the RHAW. This is a HUGE bug that needs to be addressed. I already know that I can see friendly aircraft radars on the RHAW, so why not friendly SAM radars. I tried both the Hawk and the Patriot...they searched, tracked, and engaged a target, but I saw nothing on my RHAW.

 

Has anyone else noticed this? Sometimes, IRL it is just as important to know where friendly SAM systems are, so you know to stay the hell away from them when they are engaging enemy aircraft.

 

It seems, from my dogfight, that the IFF is absolutely infallible and the accuracy of the friendly SAMs is as well, so I guess I don't have to be concerned with friendly fire on my aircraft from AI. It sure would be nice to have that fixed though, so I can see friendly radars. :D

 

Oh well...until then, I guess I'll just continue charting the ones that do show up.

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A chart to supplement the one in the manual for RWR symbology would be very useful indeed.

 

I put together a handy A4 word document TWS decode for LO/F4AF a while back. If you want to have a look click the Threat Warning System at www.the-eighth-art.com

 

Ideally, any supplement should be nice and simple, on one sheet and use a larger/clearer font than I used so that the threat can be assessed quickly before it fires at you. Looking forward to seeing your work.

 

DPS.

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Thanks for the link, DPS. I agree with you, the chart should be kept simple and concise. I guess, in reality, my going off on a tangent with hunting bugs as compared to real life, really doesn't address the current environment of the game...so I'll go back to the KISS ("keep it simple, stupid"...for some of our members who might not be familiar with this slang ;) ) principle for my chart. :D

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