Impossible to kill the Dora

[gavagai]

Of course I have caught AI 190s in their climbs, but that is because they make mistakes! Otherwise the 190D-9 seems to have a distinct climbrate advantage, which isn't too surprising. Human opponents are going to be a much bigger challenge.:smilewink:

[Yob]

Of course I have caught AI 190s in their climbs, but that is because they make mistakes! Otherwise the 190D-9 seems to have a distinct climbrate advantage, which isn't too surprising. Human opponents are going to be a much bigger challenge.:smilewink:

 

Yea, because they will also know where to engage pony pilots, at around 9000 ft to sea level.

[BSS_Vidar]

Yea, because they will also know where to engage pony pilots, at around 9000 ft to sea level.

 

I'm betting that's where all the fighting will be on-line. The Dora's won't go higher, so the Pony drivers will be forced to come down just to enjoy an engagement. There are no bombers to protect at 30K, so the fight will be low.

 

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[BSS_Vidar]

Just flew several sorties tonight. Won 4 out of 5 but the energy battle is definitely in the Dora's favor. I in no way can match the climb, even going max RPM and manifold pressure with WEP for a few moments. One F2 screen shot shows it holding 87kts in the climb to get away from me.

It twists, rolls, and turns in the climb while still pulling away. One win I had tonight, the Dora gave up and just climbed and pulled away. When I stopped the session, I took a screen shot of the Dora's icon. While still smoking and leaking gas, it was 5.2miles climbing and extending while I was following the whole time.

 

It IS frustrating, but at the same time I find the challenge exhilarating.

 

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[Yob]

Found a place to fight the Dora around the mountains, he can't dive out of the high attitude because he'l hit the ground, so u can out preform him. I now have 6 clean Kills on my new Logbook, ( i start a new one each time i Die, to be realistic). If engaging around 13K-19K ft i can out climb the Dora, out turn and out speed him. but if it is in a area where he can dive for the deck, he does.

 

If he does I end up fighting at around 2000 ft to 9000 ft which is where i can only out turn him, so some times he gets on my tail, i then go into turn fighting.

 

So i personally think if going to engage the Dora engage at higher levels. "Only engage Enemy Aircraft, when you have the advantage" (straight out of the 1940's navy training film.) another quote is from a German Ace, "If it is a fair fight you have done something wrong" i try to live by those rules.

 

Also when i first started fighting in the P-51 i was very bad, but i was told by a great pilot, think of a Dogfight as aerial ballet. Since then i am smooth i don't usually get shot down, but stall in a vertical fight and can't recover :doh:.

 

I continually try and fight 2 at a time, this can be down, i have shot both down. But to do that you need to fight defensively not offensively. Because when your chasing another guy, it's like there's a huge target sign on you, saying

 

"Come Get me I am Distracted"

[Yob]

I'm betting that's where all the fighting will be on-line. The Dora's won't go higher, so the Pony drivers will be forced to come down just to enjoy an engagement. There are no bombers to protect at 30K, so the fight will be low.

 

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Or shoot down, :P

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

That's a bold statement. There are quite a few DCS P-51D pilots who have no problem matching and outperforming the AI tactics.

 

As far as I've seen, my only issue with the AI pilot is the incredible gun accuracy. Perfectly placed deflection shots at extreme distance with no gyro gun site is a bit far fetched, but good defensive practice. The damage model for the AI 190 is obviously incomplete but just adds to the challenge.

 

+1

no problem with outperforming either the AI P51 or the 190 on pure energy fight, nor with outmanouvering them.

i also agree on the gun accuracy.thats something which really could be improved to be more human like.both the P51 and the 190 AI tend to be sharpshooters regardless of angle and distance and regardless of skill level.

 

i definitely would like to see an improvement on the shooting part, but i definitely would regret an overall flying skill reducement.

[Nealius]

My question about energy management is in how to deal with vertical fights. It's one thing in modern jets and something else with piston-engines. Following the Dora into vertical kills my energy, even if I'm going at a decent speed. So what should I do to not follow him into the vertical, while also making sure he doesn't get on my six when he comes back down?

[Merlin-27]

My question about energy management is in how to deal with vertical fights. It's one thing in modern jets and something else with piston-engines. Following the Dora into vertical kills my energy, even if I'm going at a decent speed. So what should I do to not follow him into the vertical, while also making sure he doesn't get on my six when he comes back down?

 

My observations:

You have to anticipate his climb and make sure you have the energy to at least keep him occupied. If you don't have the speed to reach the top of his climb watch your airspeed and end your climb before you stall. Once you have that energy potential try to gain on him in the next dive. If you DON'T give him chase in the vertical he will position himself for a diving attack on your six and there is no EASY counter at that point with his amazing sniping abilities. In a one-on-one fight this works for me most times with any skill AI... just keep your radiator flaps open and enough air flowing to keep your engine alive.

[Nealius]

That's where I'm confused. If I end my climb before he does, that puts him in perfect position to get on my tail.

[Merlin-27]

That's where I'm confused. If I end my climb before he does, that puts him in perfect position to get on my tail.

 

Well, I didn't say it was easy. :) But I'd rather be up near him with energy to burn than down low running for my life. I find it's crucial to keep a visual on him and turn inside him as he comes down from that climb. If you are closer he has less options. If he has a shot at you he will take it... otherwise he will resume his big dive so he has the speed to pull off another super-climb. Results may vary and sometimes they do mix it up. Come by my server any time and test it. There's a good chance you will see the method in action.

 

And to the disbelief of many, you don't need WEP to do it.

[BSS_Vidar]

I haven't had any issues with the AI shooting - until I got on your server last night. I RARELY get shot down off line. However, while I was on your server alone last night, I got bounced once and never saw him.

 

I have no problem out maneuvering him when I do have a tally. I defeat his shooting with no problem; which is evident because every time I defeat his shot, he immediately goes to the vertical.

 

What is uncanny is having 300kts indicated while he climbs up from below me and still leaves me in the dust unable to follow him into the vertical. With that said, I never try to follow him through. Before bleeding off all my E, I go into a shadowing tactic on either of his aft quarters and wait for his next move.

 

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[Merlin-27]

What is uncanny is having 300kts indicated while he climbs up from below me and still leaves me in the dust unable to follow him into the vertical. With that said, I never try to follow him through. Before bleeding off all my E, I go into a shadowing tactic on either of his aft quarters and wait for his next move.

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Do you mean 300mph? I feel pretty confident following with that kind of speed that I will get off a nice close shot at the top. Especially if he started the climb from below. Be careful not to climb after him with any flaps, that can be unpleasant.

 

There is a wide mixture of skill levels on the server. You may encounter all kinds.

[Indyana]

Well, there are diferent ways to deal with the AI Energy, but like has been already wrote, the AI is pretty predictible

 

Here some examples how i did deal with it.

 

 

and

 

 

S!

 

Indyana

[BSS_Vidar]

Right! MPH LOL That bounce he got was because I had no idea you had AI FW's on it... I DO NOW! LOL I thought I was in there all by myself.

 

Went on again today and got a nice solid kill raking 50s down both wing roots.

 

Indy, great videos! Will show your second one to the Blacksheep still disheartened by the P-51 and the AI Dora. I still don't know how to make my own track and put it on YouTube.

 

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[Konrad Friedrich]

I still don't know how to make my own track and put it on YouTube.

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You need a tool like fraps or dxtory (about 30 Euro).

Then you can record your own movie after you've saved the trackfile after a successful flight.

With a program like Photoshop (or even the free 3D program Blender) you can cut and edit your little film (maybe adding sound and music).

 

Btw: Check out the 'Show me your mad dogfighting skills!' thread.

Great for study and learning :)

Here's the link to my P-51 vs. Dora video:

[Suchacz]

I still don't know how to make my own track and put it on YouTube.

You can try to use Mission Editor feature "Record AVI". Save your mission's track and "Record AVI" will render the video from it in a stable FPS.

[Hellfire257]

And this is exactly why I would've preferred a maneuver fighter rather than another energy fighter. Different style but equally capable. It makes it more interesting :).

[gavagai]

And this is exactly why I would've preferred a maneuver fighter rather than another energy fighter. Different style but equally capable. It makes it more interesting :).

 

Turn-fighting is a defensive tactic you resort to when you are out of other options. Other things being equal, if you can dive down, blast your target, and zoom away again, that is the best of all possible results. Before the advent of the guided missile, the evolution of the fighter was to become heavier, more powerfully armed, and less maneuverable in the horizontal plane. A fighter that is maneuvering with a target stresses the pilot's SA to the point where is no longer able to see the bigger picture. At best he may be able to catch a few glances away from his adversary, and at worst he goes completely tumbleweed if he loses sight of the target he was pursuing. This is why the Fw 190 outmatched the Spitfire and F6F Hellcat outmatched the Japanese A6M Zero. Both sides responded with their own fighters that were heavier, more powerfully armed, and less maneuverable than their predecessors, e.g. the P-47, P-51, Tempest, Ki-84, N1K2-J, etc.

Maneuvering only becomes an optimal choice when two fighters are equal in speed and climb. The closer they are in these respects, the less likely it is that either one can maintain the initiative of a higher energy state. All fighters can be energy fighters, and all fighters can be turn and burn fighters. In the contest between the P-51D and Fw 190D-9, I think we will see that they are closely matched enough for there to be a lot of maneuvering between these two "energy" fighters.