MI-8 Magnificent Eight, Flight Dynamics Questions

[MaverickF22]

May be it is the same planet and air that is compressed and modeling the ground effect? Why should the "ground effect" for a Mi-8 be that different? It uses more power and compress the air harder and likely earlier...

 

Make a simple experiment: Take a piece of wood 1m x 1m and let it fall/glide to a flat concrete ground trying to keep it parallel to the ground. It will produce a cushion off compressed air beneath and slow down (ok, it will dirft and hit with a corner first, but you will see the effect).

Now try the same with a metal plate of 1m x 1m, which is considerably heavier... same effect! :smartass:

 

Hello Shagrat and thank you for the taking the time to answer about the ground effect problem...! I know exactly what you are saying, but the thing is that the ground effect just seemed (for what i saw in that promo at around 1:18 ) a bit exaggerated for the accumulated descending momentum of the MI-8! Of course that i don't exactly know how much weight did it had in the video and i also know that for almost all the aircrafts (airplanes, helicopters) the ground effect would start to be noticed/felt at around 1/3 of the wingspan (~1/3 from the rotor's diameter for helicopters)! So there should be a similarity for the height from where the ground effect occurs, but there is a significant difference between a lighter and a heavier aircraft (plane or helo) in terms of the deceleration felt by the lighter one and the heavier one (which should have a lower deceleration value), if they would both have the same descend rate, as they close to the ground!

 

Again..., take the example of the KA-50, where there is a ground effect indeed, but it's way reduced than what we see for the Huey and apparently the MI-8, and the weight of a loaded KA-50 and that of a loaded MI-8 are closer than between MI-8 and Huey, that's what i'm trying to point out!

 

I'll buy the MI-8 then and i'll come back to regard/disregard my argues about it!

 

 

Have a good day!

[zaelu]

Salut Maverick.

 

The inertia observation maybe affects some of the aircrafts/helis in DCS but it could be something dependable to visual feedback (limited by low peripheral vision or distorted image from big FOV) and by absolute absence of "bum sense". Maybe not 100% but...

 

In case of UH1H I am also disturbed that after almost falling into vortex after stopping and losing ETL because I pull the collective in panic at over -500ft/m in a matter of moments I found myself climbing up like mad with more than 500ft/m...

 

Maybe... surely... it needs tweaking and it will be more tweaked. I flew just 2 minutes with UH1H after 1.2.6. and seemed different and less deadly (actually at ETL loss I felt no danger but I was very low and I was rushing to land to go to eat :D ... no crash... all OK...)

 

 

I bought Mi-8 and it is a love at first sight. It is so ugly :lol: Flies way easier than UH1H meaning the ETL trap is not that big and you can easily escape it with a smile on your face... if you react in proper time.

 

Nu fi incruntat... viata e frumoasa.. inca :) .

[shagrat]

Hello Shagrat and thank you for the taking the time to answer about the ground effect problem...! I know exactly what you are saying, but the thing is that the ground effect just seemed (for what i saw in that promo at around 1:18 ) a bit exaggerated for the accumulated descending momentum of the MI-8! Of course that i don't exactly know how much weight did it had in the video and i also know that for almost all the aircrafts (airplanes, helicopters) the ground effect would start to be noticed/felt at around 1/3 of the wingspan (~1/3 from the rotor's diameter for helicopters)! So there should be a similarity for the height from where the ground effect occurs, but there is a significant difference between a lighter and a heavier aircraft (plane or helo) in terms of the deceleration felt by the lighter one and the heavier one (which should have a lower deceleration value), if they would both have the same descend rate, as they close to the ground!

 

Again..., take the example of the KA-50, where there is a ground effect indeed, but it's way reduced than what we see for the Huey and apparently the MI-8, and the weight of a loaded KA-50 and that of a loaded MI-8 are closer than between MI-8 and Huey, that's what i'm trying to point out!

 

I'll buy the MI-8 then and i'll come back to regard/disregard my argues about it!

 

 

Have a good day!

Thanks! Fair point. I can't say if the effect in itself is 100% accurate, though I noticed a change in the Huey's flight behavior after the patch (seems they "corrected" the engine power).

What I meant was the physical aspect. when you put more energy into a counterforce system it will enhance the countering force (ground effect) as well, so I'm not wondering that ground effect is similar on (all) helicopters. Not sure if it is overpronounced (though).

I would see inertia more as an aspect when trying to escape a VRS. You can direct a smaller mass like a Huey or littlebird out of it, where I would expect the massive Hip or Hind to be more reluctant to / less agile... my first nearly deliberate VRS in the Hip seemed quite realistic to me.

As we know Mi8Pilot is not only his avatar, but he was flying Mi8 for some time, my best guess is, if something is horribly wrong, he will figure it out... it is a Beta for a reason :D

[quyes]

I know exactly what you are saying, but the thing is that the ground effect just seemed (for what i saw in that promo at around 1:18 ) a bit exaggerated for the accumulated descending momentum of the MI-8!

 

 

I can understand your concern, and you may be correct on this one. There is however a major problem with your argument. This problem is that your observation is based on the assumption that what slows the helo's decent in the video you cited is the ground effect. This is a major assumption with no supporting evidence, that is not to say that the assumption is wrong. The video only shows an external view, there is no way to determine from that video what kind of collective input is, or is not, being applied. Therfore, it is entirely possible that the decent in the video at 1:18 is completely being arrested by increased collective.

 

Again, I'm not saying that your observation is wrong, just that more research is needed especially on a product so recently released.

 

:)

[Bucic]

Personally I don't like the beating the OP took here. If the OP neglected the fact that the helicopter in question was an AI controlled heli then he's wrong in both points, yes. But I don't appreciate the attitude of blokes who believe >any< pilot of a certain machine is more entitled to comment on the flight model of the machine than an experienced "armchair pilot". Well, it just happens that lots of real pilots are worthless when it comes to evaluation of flight models.

 

"So you've just watched the video"

Newsflash. It's generally enough to tell that 'something stinks, at least'.

 

The shots presenting the AI heli T/O as well as the shots showing issues with behavior when on-ground do look bad in the promo video.

 

You are right..., i was ridiculous and too quick to answer what i saw, but..., the thing with the ground effect still gives me some debate..., i'll come with a video later regarding the Huey's behaviour which seems very similar to the MI-8's one!

It's perfectly plausible that the pilot operated collective just the right way to make it look this way. If you record the video depicting the alleged issue with the Huey please do post it though.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Bucic

[JaNk0]

Maybe we should change the name of the thread? As we say in Sweden, "One time, doesn't count. Second time, one too many":)

[JayBones]

Sigh. Another self confessed expert where everything is rubbish. I think also an attention seeker.

I'm loving the Hip, though I can't find a manual for it...

[Winfield_Gold]

We are sorry!, :) but when mounted video in this story took off bot, not the player. But when landing - there no wrong.

See another video, there's all true!

at second 9:50 of the video

 

Dear Sir, I am impressed with your work and love this bird just like I enjoyed the UH-1 on release. Flight dynamics are bang on in my book and I give total credit to all those involved with this project and the DCS series as a whole.

 

Keep up the good work and look forward to many more years of enjoyment from the DCS series

Edited September 6, 2013 by Winfield_Gold

[AliasVBA1]

:megalol:

[Scooternutz]

Flew in a 53 a lot, as a passenger, and this MI-8 feels like is labors to get up like the Stallion. The Stallion lifts a little and seems to lurch a bit to get forward momentum going. I could never look towards the front of the Stallion. She would bounce around enough to make me air sick. I love this MI-8 so far. Without the seat of the pants feeling the flight model gives me a feeling of flying a heavy helo and does it very well. Cheers!

[msalama]

...a feeling of flying a heavy helo and does it very well. Cheers!

 

Indeed. Haven't had much time to concentrate on the beast yet, but what little I've tried it so far it really does feel like we've got some formidable mass and inertia (and momentum AND power) to play with here. Stellarly done Messieurs & Mademoiselles BST, you really are the toppermost of the poppermost :thumbup:

[MaverickF22]

I think also an attention seeker.

I'm loving the Hip, though I can't find a manual for it...

 

I'm loving the MI-8 HIP as well, and i'm not seeking anyone's attention..., but i SEEK what i find to be wrong and tell about it..., even if i might make some mistakes within the first argues!

 

 

Good day!

[Paradox]

I'm loving the MI-8 HIP as well, and i'm not seeking anyone's attention..., but i SEEK what i find to be wrong and tell about it..., even if i might make some mistakes within the first argues!

 

 

Good day!

 

I think you did the right thing, if nobody criticised or commented on beta software bugs and issues would never be fixed.

 

Tomorrow I'll actually finally be getting around to flying the thing.

[MaverickF22]

Salut Maverick.

 

The inertia observation maybe affects some of the aircrafts/helis in DCS but it could be something dependable to visual feedback (limited by low peripheral vision or distorted image from big FOV) and by absolute absence of "bum sense". Maybe not 100% but...

 

In case of UH1H I am also disturbed that after almost falling into vortex after stopping and losing ETL because I pull the collective in panic at over -500ft/m in a matter of moments I found myself climbing up like mad with more than 500ft/m...

 

Maybe... surely... it needs tweaking and it will be more tweaked. I flew just 2 minutes with UH1H after 1.2.6. and seemed different and less deadly (actually at ETL loss I felt no danger but I was very low and I was rushing to land to go to eat :D ... no crash... all OK...)

 

 

I bought Mi-8 and it is a love at first sight. It is so ugly :lol: Flies way easier than UH1H meaning the ETL trap is not that big and you can easily escape it with a smile on your face... if you react in proper time.

 

Nu fi incruntat... viata e frumoasa.. inca :) .

 

Thanks for sharing some of my thoughts about the Huey and i'm also certain that fixes will take place to bring these products to a higher level of realism..., at least to the onel we all shared with KA-50 KAMOV (what a lovely beast)! That's the first reason why i'm risking so much with tough argues some times and i know it doesn't worth it...! After all, i was the one to confuse (even if i thought for a second that it might be a mistake) that MI-8 at second 30 within that promo, to be a player instead of an AI..., and now i took my answer the hard way..., but this is life!:joystick::lol:

I'm also buying the MI-8 these days and i'm looking forward to see it's results!;)

 

-

Salutarile mele Zaleu, ma bucur mult sa te vad;)! Mi-e tare dor de zborul in IL-2, cand am jucat alaturi de tine (bine, de tabara adversa:lol:...) acum cativa ani..., a fost frumos! Acum sunt innebunit dupa DCS, dar totusi sper sa ne vedem vre-odata pe un server, sa facem o misiune, poate chiar pe al meu!

-

 

 

Have a nice day everyone,

Cheers from Romania!

[MaverickF22]

Maybe we should change the name of the thread? As we say in Sweden, "One time, doesn't count. Second time, one too many":)

 

I've also wanted to change the name of the thread myself, but i personally can't change it i see!

 

If possible..., i'd like to ask an admin who has the possibility, to change the current's thread title to: "MI-8's Flight Dynamics Overview" or something similar which won't sound as bad as i've initially named it!

 

 

Thank you!

[Bigby Wolf]

I'm loving the MI-8 HIP as well, and i'm not seeking anyone's attention..., but i SEEK what i find to be wrong and tell about it..., even if i might make some mistakes within the first argues!

 

Good day!

 

Ignore them, Maverick. They're the usual fanboy assholes who will attack you because YOU DARED to say something was wrong with the game they WORSHIP.

Luckily, this isn't the Arma forums, and a lot of us back the people's right to speak. Bugs and problems should be reported and debated and you shouldn't be attacked for doing so (unlike some forums ).

Edited September 6, 2013 by Bigby Wolf

[MaverickF22]

Thanks! Fair point. I can't say if the effect in itself is 100% accurate, though I noticed a change in the Huey's flight behavior after the patch (seems they "corrected" the engine power).

What I meant was the physical aspect. when you put more energy into a counterforce system it will enhance the countering force (ground effect) as well, so I'm not wondering that ground effect is similar on (all) helicopters. Not sure if it is overpronounced (though).

I would see inertia more as an aspect when trying to escape a VRS. You can direct a smaller mass like a Huey or littlebird out of it, where I would expect the massive Hip or Hind to be more reluctant to / less agile... my first nearly deliberate VRS in the Hip seemed quite realistic to me.

As we know Mi8Pilot is not only his avatar, but he was flying Mi8 for some time, my best guess is, if something is horribly wrong, he will figure it out... it is a Beta for a reason :D

 

I see..., i'll check the Huey as well when i'll have the time! Thanks sharing the time on everything you've said!

 

 

Good day!

Edited September 6, 2013 by MaverickF22

[msalama]

Ignore them, Maverick blah blah blah *EXPLETIVE* etc.

 

Nah, you've got it wrong buddy, his starting point was incorrect because he was drawing conclusions from an AI chopper. But then, you obviously never took the time to read through the thread so you'd actually know what we're talking about... and thus it's actually YOU who's the genuine stinking article here, now aren't you?

 

So please, learn to read and process information before coming back again, OK?

 

PS. Maverick, this wasn't directed at you so take it easy mate :)

[Bigby Wolf]

Yeah, whatever. Love all the flaming before he could even acknowledge it was AI, OK?

 

And now are we playing the immature negative rep game as well?

 

Pretty infantile, bud.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Bigby Wolf

[MaverickF22]

Ignore them, Maverick. They're the usual fanboy assholes who will attack you because YOU DARED to say something was wrong with the game they WORSHIP.

Luckily, this isn't the Arma forums, and a lot of us back the people's right to speak. Bugs and problems should be reported and you shouldn't be attacked for doing so (unlike some forums ).

 

I agree with you that it's good to point out what is possibly wrong, when you see something that won't behave as it should, especially when things are fresh and can be much early repaired, without letting them rust up..., but the way i entered, throwing hard argues about what seemed to be an AI, just because i was too sure of what i was saying, proved to be a bad aspect for myself and i recognize that!

 

Yet first of all i want things to get better and have this simulator (DCS and it's partners) at a much higher level than expected..., and this doesn't have anything now to do with money, because we can all buy a product if we like it/want it..., but it has to do with the image of what could be the best simulation experience of nowadays, leaving aside other WW1 and 2 simulators that are now emerging..., simulators which i'm also buying (or products), to see how they show up (especially in terms of aerodynamics and flight dynamics simulation, i'm personally less interested in damage modelling, even if i like it too and they are better at this).

 

Meanwhile, i'm only looking forward to see DCS grow higher and give us the option to enter the cockpit of modern fighter aircrafts and helicopters, replicating accurate (as much as possible) avionics and weapon systems employments, besides an accurate flight model of the aircrafts (which is essential for a simulator in the first place). Although DCS might not have any other competitor at it's level (only in terms of modern jets and helicopters) i'd dare to say that i will continue to trust them in these areas..., at least for what they have achieved so far!

 

 

A good day to everyone!:thumbup:

Edited September 6, 2013 by MaverickF22

[MaverickF22]

:megalol:

 

Yeah..., i laughed it too when i saw it, knowing where i did wrong, although i'm not that much, as some might think!

 

 

Good day to you bud!

[MaverickF22]

Nah, you've got it wrong buddy, his starting point was incorrect because he was drawing conclusions from an AI chopper. But then, you obviously never took the time to read through the thread so you'd actually know what we're talking about... and thus it's actually YOU who's the genuine stinking article here, now aren't you?

 

So please, learn to read and process information before coming back again, OK?

 

PS. Maverick, this wasn't directed at you so take it easy mate :)

 

No problem mate, don't worry, i could see your point, but now let's stop harassing each other on this subject..., after all it was all my fault for not making sure that was an AI at that point, which did that jump and that's why there are almost 5 pages of this thread for almost nothing...! My bad...!

 

 

Have a nice day!

[Bigby Wolf]

Yeah, you came through a little harsh on your first post, but I can't believe what followed. Reminds me of the Arma forums. Thought we were above that here. Really not liking what I seen on forums of late. I can see why people like Mower, LawnDart, and the old Frugal's crowd don't post here. I heard its why Frugals closed down again, because of people coming on insta-attacking and not debating. Guess I'm getting old. Oh well.

[Hueyman]

I feel your pain Mav' ... I thought I answered the problem on post N°2 of this thread, don't understand why every one said exactly the same, like if you were bombarded lol ... and it took 5 pages !!

 

Good luck in your investigations, well proven facts CANNOT be denied... they can be ignored, not denied

[Bigby Wolf]

I feel your pain Mav' ... I thought I answered the problem on post N°2 of this thread, don't understand why every one said exactly the same, like if you were bombarded lol ... and it took 5 pages !!

 

Good luck in your investigations, well proven facts CANNOT be denied... they can be ignored, not denied

 

The problem is, some people are just so ready to attack for anything, like the asshole who neg repped me. But I've dealt with him before, and totally expect such behavior from him. The truth is, some people with high rep, try to get rid of newer people with little rep by neg repping them to death. Like killing an infantry soldier with a 2000 lb bomb. Real mature.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Bigby Wolf