The B-17

[Krunkskimo]

WE NEED THIS.

 

honestly with this map chosen, we at least need a escort campaign with AI B-17s.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Krunkskimo

[Hueyman]

I'm a B-17 lover, since the early days of my life ! I even recently acquired an original polished propeller blade from the 17's 3,6 m Hamilton Standard Hydromatic propeller, and it's standing in my tiny student pilot room ...

 

 

All that to say I'm really in love with the Forts, and am currently reading the great book " Three engines, half a wing and a prayer " by Brian D. O'Neil, and each chapter makes me want to have a DCS : B-17F Flying Fortress come out one day... this just could be breathtaking and so innovative from a gameplay point of view.

 

The piloting task is really interesting and would add another dimension to this amazing combat simulator, monitoring aircraft mechanical systems such engines, superchargers, intercoolers etc, and managing the 9 other guys in the ship, with the ability to play each station...

 

Then come the navigator's job which could be a whole simulation on it's own, using the bubble observatory to confirm routes and locations with stars, tools, compass, Inertial Drift Indicator, maps ...

 

The bombardier task and Norden bombsight operation, if simulated accurately, could also be a great challenge !

 

Pack all that with the DCS level and environment of future WWII theater and you obtain something new and rich that provides hours and hours of exhausting and challenging missions, taking off early in the morning from foggy british airfields and flying 5 or 6 hours, making your way through flak and german fighters, then coming back on only two engines, one feathered and one ripped off, and half the rudder out... That is also air combat, there isn't only fast movers with 6 GBUs and AIMs nor WWII fighters that wrote the history...

 

B-17 did a lot here in Europe. Plus it's, from my point of view, the most awesome looking and nicely proportioned plane in the world, the kind, like the DC-3, that it's shapes and configuration makes you find it beautiful from the first sights.

 

At the Fighter Collection in Duxford, UK, they have one in the Imperial War Museum, and the Sally B which is airworthy. We have the Pink Lady and Yankees got 12 or 13 Forts in flying conditions today, so I'm sure the documentations and material is available...

 

Yes, WE NEED THIS !!

 

 

Above : The good old IL-2 19646/Pacific Fighters sim, which is one of the only way ( with the very old B-17II : The Mighty 8th ) to fly bombing mission in this bird.

[SlipBall]

Hueyman nice post!...and that blade looks very cool

[Charly_Owl]

I'm a B-17 lover, since the early days of my life ! I even recently acquired an original polished propeller blade from the 17's 3,6 m Hamilton Standard Hydromatic propeller, and it's standing in my tiny student pilot room ...

 

All that to say I'm really in love with the Forts, and am currently reading the great book " Three engines, half a wing and a prayer " by Brian D. O'Neil, and each chapter makes me want to have a DCS : B-17F Flying Fortress come out one day... this just could be breathtaking and so innovative from a gameplay point of view.

 

The piloting task is really interesting and would add another dimension to this amazing combat simulator, monitoring aircraft mechanical systems such engines, superchargers, intercoolers etc, and managing the 9 other guys in the ship, with the ability to play each station...

 

Then come the navigator's job which could be a whole simulation on it's own, using the bubble observatory to confirm routes and locations with stars, tools, compass, Inertial Drift Indicator, maps ...

 

The bombardier task and Norden bombsight operation, if simulated accurately, could also be a great challenge !

 

Pack all that with the DCS level and environment of future WWII theater and you obtain something new and rich that provides hours and hours of exhausting and challenging missions, taking off early in the morning from foggy british airfields and flying 5 or 6 hours, making your way through flak and german fighters, then coming back on only two engines, one feathered and one ripped off, and half the rudder out... That is also air combat, there isn't only fast movers with 6 GBUs and AIMs nor WWII fighters that wrote the history...

 

B-17 did a lot here in Europe. Plus it's, from my point of view, the most awesome looking and nicely proportioned plane in the world, the kind, like the DC-3, that it's shapes and configuration makes you find it beautiful from the first sights.

 

At the Fighter Collection in Duxford, UK, they have one in the Imperial War Museum, and the Sally B which is airworthy. We have the Pink Lady and Yankees got 12 or 13 Forts in flying conditions today, so I'm sure the documentations and material is available...

 

Yes, WE NEED THIS !!

 

Above : The good old IL-2 19646/Pacific Fighters sim, which is one of the only way ( with the very old B-17II : The Mighty 8th ) to fly bombing mission in this bird.

 

I completely approve. Since the Me-262 is in, I see no reason why the B-17 shouldn't be in. They're like bread and butter... sorta.

[NineLine]

http://www.warhistoryonline.com/whotube-2/b-17-low-passes-war-lover.html

 

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

well, i think its sooo much work to model a B17 on dcs standards...but i think it would be sooo worth it either.for me there is already no alternative, but fully modeled b17+a proper ww2 map would make dcs ww2 stand out forever. it would kill its competitors i think. there are so many possibilities with it.and i think, that on dcs standards, it would be the first sim, where people actually fly bombers...online as well. if they can do it, they should. i am convinced it would pay off for them big time.

 

also, i completely agree with the last few posts.it would be blast.

[[DBS]TH0R]

In the mean time, has anyone here seen the upcoming B-24D for IL21946?

 

Norden modeling there is completely re-done. It also features for the first time a working copilot in COOP mode, together with a bombardier.

 

...it would be the first sim, where people actually fly bombers...online as well.

 

There is such a sim already. And a people who actually fly bombers (online) only. :)

[NineLine]

In the mean time, has anyone here seen the upcoming B-24D for IL21946?

 

Norden modeling there is completely re-done. It also features for the first time a working copilot in COOP mode, together with a bombardier.

 

 

 

There is such a sim already. And a people who actually fly bombers (online) only. :)

 

 

Lets keep the discussion on DCS (or the real thing) as much as possible guys.

[nervousenergy]

well, i think its sooo much work to model a B17 on dcs standards...but i think it would be sooo worth it either.for me there is already no alternative, but fully modeled b17+a proper ww2 map would make dcs ww2 stand out forever. it would kill its competitors i think. there are so many possibilities with it.and i think, that on dcs standards, it would be the first sim, where people actually fly bombers...online as well. if they can do it, they should. i am convinced it would pay off for them big time.

 

also, i completely agree with the last few posts.it would be blast.

A lot of work, yes, but relative to what? Compared to the other WWII birds, sure, there's a lot more texture / pit / systems work. Compared to the modern trainers (Hawk, C-101)? These have much more complex systems, but not nearly as much straight-up modeling work in the wireframe and textures department, so they seem a wash.

 

Compared to the Mig 21? I may be totally off-base here, but no way... the Mig is vastly more complex. Heck, the Huey looks to me like it would have taken a lot more effort than a B-17 would. The only way I see a B-17 effort being greater than most modern DCS aircraft would be if our fictional dev team decided to try and model all crew stations and do them all to DCS standards.

 

Just make it flyable with a bomb sight station and it'll sell.

[Silver_Dragon]

Expected see some info soon about the B-17 AI into dcs world, surely the ww2 backers make happy with any about them.

[NineLine]

Is an AI B-17 actually in development or is it just planned at the moment?

 

Its planned, but we dont know if its started or any sort of timeline...

[IronJockel]

Its planned, but we dont know if its started or any sort of timeline...

 

a very basic version would already help a lot.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

For the time period I think either the E or G model would be most appropriate considering the current and future lineup in DCSW

[Hueyman]

The main ships of the ETO were -F, the -G came a bit later ( too late ? ) on the war.

 

Yeah that would require a lot of work, but no more than a F-18,F-14 or MiG-21, for sure.

 

Flight dynamics were straight forward, not a full fly by wire logic would need to be developed like the Su-27 supersonic and subsonic headache PFM experimentation to come to that point. Only stick to historical values of control surfaces dimensions, travel course and fine tune to real world datas such turn rates, behaviors on each axis, accuracy of fuel and balance sheets, different perfs curves according to Manifold Press. RPM, SFC, Alt. Density & Press. etc... Basic development work on any aircraft, no more, no less.

The engine management side would be nice to handle... Carefully monitoring MP, RPM, oil & cyl. temps, intercoolers and cowl flaps position, waste gates, superchargers etc... Only smart mechanical achievements

 

It's always the same "problematic" here, if it would sell, it will probably be done. Obviously, it's not a bunch of " yes, I want it cause I think it would be good " that may ignite things in the good way... Without a significant number of potential buyers, devs wont even take a look or think about the idea.

 

Put a poll with 1500 members positive out of 2000-2200 total and they might spend a little time studying the feasibility and commercial success of such module. That kind of poll : http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116871

 

We were told several times that DCS modules were chosen according to Army contracts... true or false ? I dunno but that seems strange USAF require a P-51D or BF109 hardcore sim... Anyway, now that 3rd parties are well into the gears, it's not foolish to keep hope that someone will finally catch up and start a B-17 Flying Fortress DCS module.

 

For those who have skills, motivation, and time, it could be a very interesting and rich experience, traveling 'round Europe to gather as much infos as possible then going to USA, recording engine sounds, talk with 90+ YO mechanics, pilots and crew members to really understand what it was like to fly these Viermots.

 

With a little team of 2-4 guys, it could take a rough two years and reach an incredible high standard level, same as the Mustang, Messerschmidt and Focke Wulf... incoming P-47 and Spit, I'm confident, are going to be a blast as well ! Now we need Heavies, the skies wasn't always filled with single engined warplanes.

 

I can't even imagine what it would be to have a DCS level B-17 in DCS, online gameplay would be awesome, 17s taking off from the edge of the map and the little friends ( Mustangs and P-47, and Spitfires, like it was in reality ) taking off at mid-travel and joining them at 35 000 ft. Then Luftwaffe airfields scattered on the path to the target... that would be awesome.

 

With the incoming NTTR map, the logical solo campaign could also feature bomber crew training, crew management, dummy aerial targets firing from all turrets, bombing practice on static targets on the desert, formation flying practice etc etc... Then, at 20% of the campaign, when the crew is skilled enough " in theory " a simple change of Map from NTTR to Normandy would mean the bomber squadron being sent overseas, and the real deal begins ! With historically true mission, including random mechanical failures leading to aborts, like it also was common back in the times. So much potential :thumbup:

 

From a technical PoV, I don't see any valid reason to say it's impossible or not reasonably feasible. One of the thing we really start to miss in DCS is the multi-crew management system. But soon or later it will have to be implemented or DCS will meet a bottleneck here. Long time community requested modules such Apache, Cobra, Mi-24 Hind, as well as current Huey really need this.

 

 

 

 

Some years ago, I remember posting such a Utopian and dreamers post about the Huey, when no trace of Belsimtek's masterpiece was present at that time :

 

" As my username can let it guess, I'm a fully, deeply, 9000% Huey LOVER

That means , civilian or military, -B or -H variants, I'm fond of that chopper..

It's rotorhead, blades, cockpit, overall shape, sounds.. and history are just so... Loving.

 

I would give a lot to be able to fly one in the wonderful DCS Word.

 

This thread is now a year old, Now that P-51 is out, we can launch the polemic again, they release a plane, that should fight in a world full of SAM, Air Ground, Air-Air things.. with what ? six guns ? LOL

 

So I think the weapons side of things is becoming less and less a decisive argument.

 

A Bell UH-1 Huey, in the appropriate foggy, grey, wet map of Vietnam jungles, would just be so SO exciting, with a detailed world that latest DCS offers to us.. Imagin :

 

Start a mission ON YOUR FEET ( so you control the human ) in a forward base, by night, in the middle of a dense jungle. You go to the next barracks and your chiefs give you night's order mission : a team of 7 SOG Soldiers are lost in the deep jungle, near Cambodian border, you have to pick them out ASAP, as patrols on Cambodge is absolutely ( officialy at least ) prohibited, then take them to Da Nang airport cause they're about to finish their Tour Of Duty and should prepare to get back home.. during the flight, all can happen, stay tuned on the radio, the war is still advancing, and all can happen.. ( meaning here you would eventually be called to land on a kind of FARP, ground guys loading rocket pods on your airframe sides ) and we tell you you have fight against a VC attack near Khe Sanh, as soon as 7 guys are delivered. All mission editor, trigger etc offer many possibilities.

 

 

 

I'm sorry guys but that sound really exciting plot, you'll need to work like a real pilot, plan your navigation " by the book " on map before, calculating wind drift, fill your navlog, estimate differents headings according to airways ( at least, routes that are known to be " sure " ).. then climb into your venerable UH-1 H, start checklist ( a full check would take 7-10 min ) calculating fuel you should take to fullfil the mission without being too heavy, while taking into account the possibility of a route change. Then finally start turbine, and slowly hear that so known sound of those mighty blades..

 

That's true us, simmer pilots used to fully automatic or powerful stuf like A-10, Su-25.. even if not latest technology, it's still relatively easy to handle them, the principal fun is by operating weapon.. here it would be have a real workload of navigation and flight management. For example, best submarine sims, Silent Hunter series ,also focus a lot on crew managing, navigation, weather change etc... not only firing a bunch of torpedoes to sink everythink.

 

Some of you may thinks it's rubbish, compared to " LOAD OF DEATH " the A-10 can offer.. but personally, destroying things over and over in the Black Shark kinda boring me a la longue. As you said, Digital COMBAT Simulation means things related to war, not only killing. A battle without logistic support is lost even before starting. The Huey could pickup an artillery piece and bring it on the top of a Hill..

 

Let's just imagin a second, back in the mid 60's.. "

 

A couple of years later we had the marvelous Bell UH-1H Huey by BST, so, while it's obvious they didn't make it thanks to this particular post, I'm sure it's not useless to make CONSTRUCTIVE requests again and again, showing our deep interest in such aircraft to be developed and released. DCS is growing faster and faster each year and 2014-2017 period is and wil be breathetaking, even only from what we had until now ( and the best is yet to come ^^ )

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have a nice weekend dude, and please feel free to express your thoughts about such projects, positive or negative, as long as you have arguments it's nice :smartass:

 

Hueyman

Edited May 1, 2015 by Hueyman

[[DBS]TH0R]

The main ships of the ETO were -F, the -G came a bit later ( too late ? ) on the war.

 

G came in 1943, to be more precise. Later on G was modified, the most obvious change was the "Cheyenne turret":

 

 

There were some other modifications throughout the rest of the war IIRC, such as removal then return of the fire extinguishers, removal of the radio operator .50cal etc.

[Buren]

Without scrutinizing the 20 page thread, is a flyable B-17 planned in the long term (I understand that an AI version is in preparation, at least in disclosed plans)? Absolute beauty of a machine, probably the only aircraft besides the P-47 (quite sad for its delay) which interests me in the currently proposed WW2 line.

[NineLine]

I have heard no plans of a flyable B-17 at this time.

[Buren]

Understandable. Very complex machine, which beyond that, needs both the extension of the game world and AI crew.

 

In a certain regard, a WW2 version of the Tomcat, one might say. (do not take this literally -- I mean that both are complex, multi-crew, unique machines, which are -- unfortunately for authentic simulator developers -- are extremely popular).

 

There are rumours that Spielgerg and Hanks are going to adapt the book 'Masters of the Air' into a miniseries in the same vein of 'Band of Brothers'. Hopefully, if actually made and successful, it is going to raise public awareness of the B-17 and its missions, so greater demand will be generated for a modern B-17 combat simulator. One can dream.

[arglmauf]

IMHO, the B-17 should be considered a very critical asset. Currently, all the WW2 planes we have are being developed without any real scenario to put them in. While that's nice and people are usually very crafty when it comes to finding some solutions, the B-17 could become a bigger game changer than "just another plane". It would be the dictating asset that determines where dogfights would happen. In the current matchup, the K4 runs circles around the P-51, most dogfights happen at altitudes where the K4 can play its advantages to the fullest. This would drastically change at higher altitudes when the B-17 would becomes the mission focus and pulls the dogfights up and keeps them high.

 

So the B-17 would not only be cool to have as a possible future plane to fly and dig into (considering also that our ground-pounders are sorely lacking things to fly in DCS WW2 right now), it would also become an important scenario asset that would change the way the current planeset fights each other.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Currently, all the WW2 planes we have are being developed without any real scenario to put them in.

Negative mate, Normandy map is being developed. Still B-17 will fit quite nicely there :thumbup:. You're right about the game changer it would be even though if people wants that it can be found using placeholders for WWII bombers. I bet for B-17 also and they already said it'll be at least as IA in Normandy, but not every mission have to be high altitude escorting and I think people will still look for the classic dogfight with or without map/WWII units.

 

S!

[buster_dee]

I think hammering out the level of human involvement would help define the extent of modeling and coding. Full human crews, partial human crew roles, pilot-only? Every a/c of a flight available? Lead bombers only?

 

I would love to be part of a well-trained, full crew.

[NineLine]

I plead for a flyable one every chance I get :)

[Hueyman]

I would pay 1000 USD for a DCS level flyable B-17F, for real !

 

I'm sure it'll come one day.

 

Back in the time, bomber crews training in Californian deserts... kinda like NTTR

[USA_Recon]

B17 would be a game in and of itself in DCS terms...

[Buren]

Another question -- on Silver Dragon's roadmap, he has a B-17F as a planned AI craft; if that rumour is true, why the "F" model is being made?

 

It's strange that not the definitive "G" version is being considered, especially if one thinks about that the "G" was used from late 1943 and that almost all other DCS WW2 aircraft in comparison are the latest and greatest variant...